T Nation

Various Q's about Test Cycle and PCT Alternatives


#1

I’ve been on here a while lurking in the shadows and reading everything I get my hands on.

Here’s the cycle:
Weeks 1-12 Test cyp e3d @ 200mg
Weeks 1-14 letro @ .25mg ed

Two weeks after last pin, start pct

PCT:
Weeks 1-6: Nolva/Clomid @ 20mg ed

I understand that nolva and clomid compete for the same receptor but influence the pituitary gland differently. That’s why I have them together for the pct. However, I have also read various research about using only nolva and incorporating aromisin into the pct because it’s a type 1 inhibitor and will affect the enzyme that’s responsible for changing T into E. But I’ve also been told that I shouldn’t take an AI on pct because estrogen should have been managed on cycle and as the test tapers out of the body, the estrogen will not have to be reduced because it already was low from the AI.

What I want to know is what method is correct. Should an AI be incorporated into the pct? Or is it correct to solely use SERMs on pct?

Also, which of these blood tests do I want?
http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tests.php?view=category_result&show=764&category=6&search=#764

http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tests.php?view=category_result&show=1032&category=6&search=#1032

http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lp/menopause-testing.php

Thanks in advance.


#2

SERM’s also cause aromatisation, especially at higher doses, so you may want an AI to control that.

Is the letro dosing an error? If you run that amount you certainly wont have any estrogen to worry about…


#3

I wasn’t planning to run high amounts of nolva/clomid, just the 20mg ed.

No, the letro dosing isn’t a mistake.


#4

I haven’t used letro but I’m 99% sure that your planned dosing of 0.25mg everyday if far too high and will crash your E pretty hard.

I have heard good things about aromasin but have never used it - arimidex does a good job for me and i know how much to i need to take.

Plenty of people run a PCT without an AI - using one SERM alone at a lower dose is probably more important than the AI use.

I would fix your AI dosing during the cycle, and taper the AI into the first few weeks of PCT.


#5

na, 0.25mg of letro a day’ll be fine. It’s not that much.

Hard as hell to dose it that low, though…


#6

I wanted to add that I plan to bridge the gap between the Cycle and PCT with the letro so that there isn’t a estrogen rebound.


#7

@cycobushmaster I’ve thoroughly read you “thoughts on planning pct” sticky and I’m wondering what advice you may have.


#8

typically, i’d suggest picking one SERM over the other and running it for 6 weeks (or more, depending on the cycle). if you’re gonna run 10 mg of both clomid and nolva, i think you could avoid the side effects of too many SERMs, but i’m not sure that you’d see much of an increase in testosterone production. <the thing is, clomid, nolva and tore all seem to work pretty wel, and minor tweaks don’t seem to ramp up the effects that much, IMO.

as far as the AI is concerned, i think running that until PCT is always a good idea, as it can prevent estrogen rebound, which can screw up the HPTA. i think the way you have it set up will work just fine…

if you have bloodwork and know that your E2 is high, or if you think it’s still high based off side effects, then you could certainly run the letrozole into PCT. if i had to choose high or low E2 in PCT, i’d pick low, as that would still force the HPTA to increase testosterone production…


#9

btw, i typically order the 2nd test that you have listed (the $66 one)… if you sign up for Private MD Labs newsletter, then they will send out a coupon code, too


#10

@cycobushmaster have you ever seen any data to suggest a negative interaction between letro and clomid? I’ve never seen any but you’re better at this sort of thing than I am.


#11

not that i’ve seen… i think the only ones that have an interaction are nolvadex and arimidex (and that might not actually be that significant, depending on the use).


#12

I’ll look it up later, but I’m sure I saw an interaction between nolva and letro. I think one lowers blood concentration of the other by like 40%.

I’ll dig it up later


#13

please do. this is the only thing that i can think of:

Dowsett M, Cuzick J, Howell A, Jackson I. Pharmacokinetics of anastrozole and tamoxifen alone, and in combination, during adjuvant endocrine therapy for early breast cancer in postmenopausal women: a sub-protocol of the ‘arimidex and tamoxifen alone or in combination’ (ATAC) trial. Br J Cancer 2001;85(3):317-24. British Journal of Cancer - Abstract of article: Pharmacokinetics of anastrozole and tamoxifen alone, and in combination, during adjuvant endocrine therapy for early breast cancer in postmenopausal women: a sub-protocol of the 'Arimidex? and Tamoxife

The ATAC trial evaluates in a randomized, double-blind design, Arimidextrade mark (anastrozole) alone or in combination with tamoxifen, relative to tamoxifen alone as 5-year adjuvant treatment in postmenopausal women with early breast cancer.

Patients included in the pharmacokinetic (PK) sub-protocol had been in ATAC for > or =3 months, taking their medication in the morning and were 100% compliant for the preceding 14 days. Blood samples were collected 24 +/- 4 h after last dose. Trough (C(min)) plasma concentrations of anastrozole, tamoxifen and desmethyltamoxifen (DMT) were measured by validated methods. The PK results were based on a total of 347 patients (131 anastrozole (1 mg o.d.), 111 tamoxifen (20 mg o.d.), 105 anastrozole and tamoxifen (1 and 20 mg o.d. respectively)).

The geometric mean steady-state trough plasma concentrations of tamoxifen and DMT were statistically equivalent in patients receiving tamoxifen alone or in combination with anastrozole: geometric mean tamoxifen = 94.8 ng ml(-1)and 95.3 ng ml(-1)in tamoxifen alone and combination groups, respectively; geometric mean DMT = 265.1 and 277.6 ng ml(-1)in the tamoxifen and anastrozole and tamoxifen groups, respectively. The geometric mean anastrozole levels were 27% lower (90% Cl 20-33%;P< 0.001) in the presence of tamoxifen than with anastrozole alone. Baseline plasma oestradiol levels were not obtained in the PK sub-protocol, however, such information was available from a similar ATAC sub-protocol, which evaluated bone mineral density. Mean oestradiol levels were 21.3, 19.3, and 21.6 pmol l(-1)prior to treatment and 3.7, 20.9 and 3.6 pmol l(-1)after 3 months in the anastrozole, tamoxifen, and combination groups, respectively (n = 167). On-treatment values were below the detection limit (3 pmol l(-1)) in 43.6 and 38.5% of the anastrozole alone and anastrozole in combination with tamoxifen groups, respectively.


#14

^i have no idea how that fucking emoticon got added in there… weird.


#15

@cycobushmaster Just to make sure that I understand you 100%, you’re saying that I can run both @ 10mg ed, but I won’t see any test increase between running just one @ 20mg a day. Definitely not a decrease though?


#16

http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/5/9/2338

there’s it. Maybe you can cast a beady eye over it and give your thoughts


#17

So it looks like the Letrozole is affected by the Nolvadex if I’m reading that correctly. So during a PCT, Letro would not decrease the effects of the Nolva, but Nolva would affect the efficiency of the Letro.

Also, the dosage of the letro is 2.5mg/day which is extremely high and not applicable for someone using as an AI.

Edited: However, after further though… 37.5% of 2.5mg/day is .9375mg/day. Which is in the range that one would look for.


#18

good find! looks like they both have an interaction… i’m gonna have to do some more digging, and see if there’s any new research on Aromasin, as well.


#19

yeah, i have not found any documentation that shows high doses of SERMs are any better than lower doses. for nolva, that’s 20 mg. for clomid, that’s 25 mg. and for tore, that’s 60 mg. in fact when you look at studies with cloimd at 300 mg, we see that it decreases the body’s response to LH, so that’s obviously bad.

anecdotally, when guys have side effects they are typically running double or triple these dosages in PCT, as well (or stacking multiple SERMs). for whatever reason, a lot of guys want to run shorter PCT’s (4 weeks) and double up on the SERM, but they could just spread it out and run the lower doses… this seems to account for any slow-clearing esters, as well.


#20

yeah, i think for your PCT, this is a non-issue.

but, for someone trying to deal with gyno, then the 2 options below would work:

ralox with aromasin, arimidex or letro

or nolva with aromasin (but not arimidex or letro)