T Nation

V. Gambetta Attacks Charlie Francis

TC, Chris, I was just wondering if maybe you guys would consider bringing back Charlie Francis?

I think I’ll start a ‘Bring back Charlie’ campaign.

In many opinions here he is a true T-man and a real genius that could contribute to our learning.

Part of the reason I ask is that it is drawing close to 20 years since that famous race and it would be great to have him here again.

Also since his trips Down-under and now the whole hullaballoo about himself and the attacks Vern Gambetta is making on him.

See …
http://www.functionalpathtraining.blogspot.com/

Lets … ‘Bring back Charlie’

[quote]JWinston wrote:
TC, Chris, I was just wondering if maybe you guys would consider bringing back Charlie Francis?

I think I’ll start a ‘Bring back Charlie’ campaign.

In many opinions here he is a true T-man and a real genius that could contribute to our learning.

Part of the reason I ask is that it is drawing close to 20 years since that famous race and it would be great to have him here again.

Also since his trips Down-under and now the whole hullaballoo about himself and the attacks Vern Gambetta is making on him.

See …
http://www.functionalpathtraining.blogspot.com/

Lets … ‘Bring back Charlie’
[/quote]

Charlie stopped writing for us.

He got mad at us (as I recall) because of an article by Charles Staley that we posted.

Francis claims, mistakenly, I promise you, that Staley stole the article concept from him.

Since I ran the article, I got some of the blame.

Haven’t heard from him since.

[quote]TC wrote:
Charlie stopped writing for us.

He got mad at us (as I recall) because of an article by Charles Staley that we posted.

Francis claims, mistakenly, I promise you, that Staley stole the article concept from him.

Since I ran the article, I got some of the blame.

Haven’t heard from him since.

[/quote]

I agree that Charlie Francis is a great coach and his past shouldn’t be held against him, but as I recall, he’s kinda famous for making that kind of attacks against other coaches. Can’t remember exactly who he accused of it, but Charles Staley isn’t the only guy Francis accused of stealing his training concepts…

IMO, there’s only so much times you can claim of your knowledge stolen from you before people assume that you invented the wheel. No one has all the good ideas.

I too would love to see Charlie writing for this site, but then again, he has his own forum and often will answer just about any (reasonable) questions asked on there. So it’s not like you don’t have access to his mind any more.

[quote]TC wrote:
JWinston wrote:
TC, Chris, I was just wondering if maybe you guys would consider bringing back Charlie Francis?

I think I’ll start a ‘Bring back Charlie’ campaign.

In many opinions here he is a true T-man and a real genius that could contribute to our learning.

Part of the reason I ask is that it is drawing close to 20 years since that famous race and it would be great to have him here again.

Also since his trips Down-under and now the whole hullaballoo about himself and the attacks Vern Gambetta is making on him.

See …
http://www.functionalpathtraining.blogspot.com/

Lets … ‘Bring back Charlie’

Charlie stopped writing for us.

He got mad at us (as I recall) because of an article by Charles Staley that we posted.

Francis claims, mistakenly, I promise you, that Staley stole the article concept from him.

Since I ran the article, I got some of the blame.

Haven’t heard from him since.

[/quote]

Thanks for the reply TC.

From that I gather you guys don’t have any real problems with him writing here again?

The reason I ask is that he seems to have made quite a bit of a stir in Australia recently and I just thought he was the kind of elite coach that would be at home here, ruflling feathers - you guys were never afraid of that before!

I vaguely remember the whole Stately stuff a while ago, but lets be honest Charlie is, - and respect to all the other writers here - no disrepect intended at all - (apart from Poliquin I guess), the only other writer to have trained athletes to the elite level of the Olympic Games 100m final.

Anyway - like I said I just wanted to suggest him again for consideration and if you guys bring him back I for one will be delighted.

Thanks again for the reply TC

[quote]JWinston wrote:
TC, Chris, I was just wondering if maybe you guys would consider bringing back Charlie Francis?

I think I’ll start a ‘Bring back Charlie’ campaign.

In many opinions here he is a true T-man and a real genius that could contribute to our learning.

Part of the reason I ask is that it is drawing close to 20 years since that famous race and it would be great to have him here again.

Also since his trips Down-under and now the whole hullaballoo about himself and the attacks Vern Gambetta is making on him.

See …
http://www.functionalpathtraining.blogspot.com/

Lets … ‘Bring back Charlie’
[/quote]

Charlie is no genius, and it’s 20 years past time to get over Ben Johnson.

and Tim Montgomery?

Belligerent - spoken with true belligerence!

True Davan … and not to mention Justin Gatlin

I guess when using the word ‘genius’ one must be careful - but I guess Marion Jones is a good judge of character and a sprint coach and if she claimed he was a genius … well then I’ll take her word.

I don’t necessarily have anything against Charlie’s methods, but he is not the omniscient sprinting guru that people take him for. You all are buying into the persona of someone who has done a lot more theorizing and pontificating than actual coaching and whose only pupils of note comprise the most notorious drug cheats in track history. Inevitably his desciples will counter me by claiming that all sprinters are juiced, but I say that’s just blind faith in the word of Charlie. Circular reasoning at its finest.

Anyway, I don’t know why anyone believes anything that CF say. About a year before the THG scandal went down, when it was revealed that he was coaching Tim and Marion, Charlie made a very impassioned public statement claiming that he had no knoweldge of any drug use by the sprinters, and that he had never even discussed the subject with them. He said that he loved his wife and daughter too much to compromise his integrity by getting involved with drugs again. NOW we know that he was a key participant in “project world record”. Awesome. What a bold-faced liar.

[quote]JWinston wrote:
I guess when using the word ‘genius’ one must be careful - but I guess Marion Jones is a good judge of character and a sprint coach and if she claimed he was a genius … well then I’ll take her word.
[/quote]

I think Marion Jones must be the worst judge of character who ever lived. Not because she holds Charlie in high esteem, but because everyone else whom she ever associated with is a catastrophe of a human being in general.

BTW, Marion hit her best performances in her first two years of competition, when she was coached by Trevor Graham, who frankly is the DUMBEST shit in the history of the sport. Charlie didn’t even get her to run faster than Graham did!

AFAIK his role in Project World Record was in the design of the training programme and the correction of technique.

Lets be honest - if he was involved in BALCO - don’t you think he would have been the FIRST person to be called before the Grand Jury considering his reputation?
He wasn’t even questioned.

I also can’t see what his knowledge of drugs from 20 years ago could have had to offer BALCO anyway?

As for ‘theorizing and pontificating’ well that’s all well and good - but the facts are that his training programme is what Tim Montgomery & Justin Gatlin used to break the WR. Asafa Powels coach uses Charlie methods also.

Trevor Graham was invovled in project WR at the start and took his methods away with him to train Gatlin afterwards … so lets be honest and call it for what it is.

The whole debate about who is jucing and who isn’t … irrelevant to be honest… do you honesty think there is anyone in the top 20 in the world not?

As for Marion - she didn’t win under him as she was preganant before she could race under him -

  • but she broke the World 60m record while training under him after a few weeks
  • She was concetrating on the Long jump anyway and jumped further than ever before
  • she had to be clean doing all these things - since she was getting pregnant!

The bit about Treveor Graham - well I don’t know …

Funny, Trevor Grahm has had 8 athletes test positive. Including Marion andd Tim…

Yey they appear as a stain on charlies career.

Well I ask is it the chicken or the egg

"On July 29, 2006 Justin told the media that he had been informed by the USADA that he had given a positive doping test in April the same year. [5] He did, however, claim his innocence in the matter: “:I cannot account for these results, because I have never knowingly used any banned substance or authorised anyone to administer such a substance to me!”

The substance that it is believed that Gatlin has being tested positive was “testosterone or its precusor”. [6] The failed test was revealed after a relay race on April 22, 2006 in Lawrence, Kansas, USA. [7] The “B” sample was confirmed as positive in July.

Gatlin is coached by Trevor Graham. Among athletes Graham has coached, eight have tested positive or received bans for performance enhancing drugs. After Gatlin’s failed test, Graham stated in an interview that Gatlin had been set up [8], [9] Specifically, he blamed massage therapist, Christopher Whetstine, for rubbing a creme with testosterone onto Gatlin without his knowledge. The therapist denied this claim, saying: “Trevor Graham is not speaking on behalf of Justin Gatlin and the story about me is not true!” " [10]

Gatlin had previously tested positive for amphetamine at the US junior championships at the University of Tennessee but the subsequent ban was not required to be served (though it remained upon the books) on the grounds that the substances were medication to combat attention deficit disorder [11].

On August 22, 2006 Gatlin agreed to an eight year ban from track and field, avoiding a lifetime ban in exchange for his cooperation with the doping authorities, and because of the “exceptional circumstances” surrounding his first positive drug test. [12]

"

I will say this about Charlie:

1.) His knowledge of the nervous system and how to manipulate it for performance gains is probably second to none.

2.) He is EXTREMELY giving of his time and willing to answer questions on an open forum.

Those two qualities make him good in my book.

[quote]squattin600 wrote:
Funny, Trevor Grahm has had 8 athletes test positive. Including Marion andd Tim…

Yey they appear as a stain on charlies career.
[/quote]

Shows what you know since Tim NEVER tested positive. Did he use? Probably, but never once did he test positive or admit guilt openly. Leaked grand jury testimony is what did him in, correct or incorrect.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
I don’t necessarily have anything against Charlie’s methods, but he is not the omniscient sprinting guru that people take him for. You all are buying into the persona of someone who has done a lot more theorizing and pontificating than actual coaching and whose only pupils of note comprise the most notorious drug cheats in track history. Inevitably his desciples will counter me by claiming that all sprinters are juiced, but I say that’s just blind faith in the word of Charlie. Circular reasoning at its finest. [/quote] Mark McKoy? Angela Issajenko (or however you spell it)? Which coaches would you recommend that have widely available information? Most other coaches, besides maybe Dan Pfaff keep it under wraps with very little dialogue or anything about their training methods.

Davan, you are quite defensive. Relax man. Deep breath… Feel better

I believe we are on the same side of this debate bro.

in response to my mis-allegation about montgomery

“Among athletes Graham has coached, eight have tested positive or received bans for performance enhancing drugs. They include six world champions (shot putter C.J. Hunter, 400m runners Antonio Pettigrew, Jerome Young, Calvin Harrison and Alvin Harrison and 200m runner Michelle Collins) and Tim Montgomery (whose World Record in the 100m has since been revoked).”

Later I found this

“While he (montgomery) has not returned a positive drug test”

I’ll find better soueces next time

Either way, does it matter. The point was why is he a stain on CF and not on Graham.

Another point about Graham. He busted open the BALCO scandal. He and Gatlin talked all kinds of smack about dopes and cheats. Yet Gatlin gets popped. 7+1 (montgomery) of his athletes test positive. Yet CF is labeled a big cheat.

I enjoy CF’s work and think his work has had an influence on probably ALL of the top coaches in the world.

[quote]davan wrote:
squattin600 wrote:
Funny, Trevor Grahm has had 8 athletes test positive. Including Marion andd Tim…

Yey they appear as a stain on charlies career.

Shows what you know since Tim NEVER tested positive. Did he use? Probably, but never once did he test positive or admit guilt openly. Leaked grand jury testimony is what did him in, correct or incorrect.[/quote]

[quote]JWinston wrote:
AFAIK his role in Project World Record was in the design of the training programme and the correction of technique.
[/quote]

JWINSTON, it is a good point about Charlie’s role in project world record. I always assumed that he was aware of the drug use, but admittedly that is nothing more than an assumption and I may have assumed wrong.

Yes, I believe that many, if not most top sprinters are clean. I also think that it is totally unfair to assume otherwise.

Charlie Francis is a little punk ass bitch. He ran around Toronto telling everyone who’d listen that “he knew what Donovan Bailey took in 96”. I overheard him say this. When Donovan (who was completely clean by the way) confronted him Charlie denied ever saying that.

Charlie’s M.O. is to justify cheating by saying that “everyone does it and we need to equal the playing field”. If he really believed in what he was saying then he would have said so to Donovan. Instead, he acted like a little bitch and lied (again). He probably knows that TC and Staley didn’t steal any ideas from him, this is just an ego thing.

JWinston, Not to start an internet fight but I’m not sure how close you are to the sprinting world. I’m not anymore, but I was between 95 and 01 and I can tell you that many sprinters (admittedly mostly outside the US) were clean. I think the most amazing feat that I’ve ever seen was Obadele Thompson in the quarterfinal of the 200m in Sydney.

He could have broke the world record in that race. As well, Asafa Powell does not use Charlie Francis’s training methods. Most of Charlie’s methods were discovered by Ben, when Ben was recovering from an injury.

[quote]JWinston wrote:
AFAIK his role in Project World Record was in the design of the training programme and the correction of technique.

Lets be honest - if he was involved in BALCO - don’t you think he would have been the FIRST person to be called before the Grand Jury considering his reputation?
He wasn’t even questioned.

I also can’t see what his knowledge of drugs from 20 years ago could have had to offer BALCO anyway?

As for ‘theorizing and pontificating’ well that’s all well and good - but the facts are that his training programme is what Tim Montgomery & Justin Gatlin used to break the WR. Asafa Powels coach uses Charlie methods also.

Trevor Graham was invovled in project WR at the start and took his methods away with him to train Gatlin afterwards … so lets be honest and call it for what it is.

The whole debate about who is jucing and who isn’t … irrelevant to be honest… do you honesty think there is anyone in the top 20 in the world not?

As for Marion - she didn’t win under him as she was preganant before she could race under him -

  • but she broke the World 60m record while training under him after a few weeks
  • She was concetrating on the Long jump anyway and jumped further than ever before
  • she had to be clean doing all these things - since she was getting pregnant!

The bit about Treveor Graham - well I don’t know …[/quote]

[quote]Ken Rose wrote:
Charlie Francis is a little punk ass bitch. He ran around Toronto telling everyone who’d listen that “he knew what Donovan Bailey took in 96”. I overheard him say this. When Donovan (who was completely clean by the way) confronted him Charlie denied ever saying that.

Charlie’s M.O. is to justify cheating by saying that “everyone does it and we need to equal the playing field”. If he really believed in what he was saying then he would have said so to Donovan. Instead, he acted like a little bitch and lied (again). He probably knows that TC and Staley didn’t steal any ideas from him, this is just an ego thing.[/quote]

amen brotha