T Nation

Using an OTC SERM and AI, in Place of Prescription SERM


#1

Would using Rebirth and an OTC AI like Inhibit-E be a good idea? I can’t afford to pay a place like defymedical and I can’t find a doctor that will prescribe clomid and/or an AI. My test levels are in the low to mid 300 range, but since that range is considered “normal”, no doctor wants to help. So, I came up with the idea of using Rebirth and Inhibit-E(If I need it) and pay for only lab slips, the one that cost $67 and get my blood tested about every three months. I’m waiting on my blood work to come back. My doctor was nice enough to give me a slip for basically a full hormone panel, minus a few things such as cortisol and DHEA. I have all the symptoms of Low T except my libido is quite high. My goal is to get my T levels into the mid 600s or above, but prefer to be in the 700 range.

I started a new thread, as to not derail my other and I figured more people would view this thread due to the title. I just felt this topic was important enough on it’s own.


#2

Keep hunting for doctors.

I can’t imagine that an OTC “SERM” will work anywhere near well enough to get you up to that range. I just searched Rebirth to see results; it’s entirely bodybuilders doing PCT. During PCT, it’s going to be impossible to parse out what is the result of the Rebirth and what is the result of the body naturally recovering testosterone production.

I’m on Clomid and I went from mid-300s to low-500s TT. Not very impressive, but my FT went from 79 to 170.

You can get “research” versions of Clomid and Nolva online, if you’re comfortable going that route in the meantime. But I’d go to the “how to find a doctor” sticky and keep working that angle.


#3

Yeah, I read the sticky. The thing is most of the urologists in the area are associated with one company. I have an appointment with a urologist, but it’s not until July 6 and he’s a replacement for another urologist I called about seeing. This urologist is at least associated with another organization. Once I get my results back, I’m going to call an endocrinologist. There is an endocrinologist department that works out of the same place I see my primary. All the doctors are women though, I’m not sure if that matters TOO much. They supposedly specialize in hormones and testosterone is mentioned on their site directly, however their site does not go into detail about treatment. It seems that most of the doctors either don’t specialize, or are too far and don’t take insurance anyway. I called this one urologist that is pretty much top of the department of the urologist associates I’ve mentioned and I was told, “She only helps couples that want to get pregnant.”


#4

What dosage of Clomid are you on?


#5

50mg/day right now. Doctor says we will drop to 25mg every other day starting at the end of June - which will be 5 months after I started.

My results were very strong in the first two weeks and then died off.
Then I, on my own accord, dropped down to 25mg/day for about a week and a half, felt a little better, then went back up to 50mg. Now I’m feeling amazing at this dosage again, with my libido absolutely crazy. I wonder if there’s any reason cycling Clomid up and down would have positive effects, or if this is the result of something else.


#6

If you are on clomid, you may have to get your E2 levels checked and possibly start an AI. E2, IMHO, is often the difference between a good outcome and a bad one.


#7

Well, my results are back and they are not what I expected. My TT is actually at 474. Here are the results:

Isn’t Hemoglobin a bit high? Keep in mind I have mild sleep apnea and wear a mouth appliance and the day of the test, I didn’t have more than 3 hours of sleep. My estradiol is high. My thyroid is at 2.0. Before I started taking kelp pills, my thyroid was at 1.11. The only other thing I did differently from the earlier tests is, I didn’t take astragalus for two days before the test. This clearly means I won’t get treatment for low test. It’s both good and bad, since I want to still get to the 600 range. Since Estradiol is high though, would I benefit from taking a low dose OTC AI? EDIT: I also took Claritin-D the night prior of the test and started taking Claritin-D a week before the test. I don’t know if that matters at all, I’m just noting all the things different I’m taking, or not taking since the initial tests. Red Blood Cell Count is high. I have no idea what’s causing that and what to do about it.


#9

Claritin is worthless. Read the studies, it’s barely slightly better than placebo. Don’t waste your money on it. I doubt it affected anything.

I would be bordering on uncomfortable with that level of E2. At E2 of 32 I’d like to rip off my nipples they itch so bad.

Not sure how supplementing iodine affects TSH tests, better ask ksman that one. 1.11 is a pretty good starting point though.

Hemoglobin will increase with higher T levels.


#10

So, how do I lower estradiol, how much can I expect Test to raise once I lower it and is the red blood cell count a big concern? Also, how is Free Testosterone? It looks right at mid range to me. I’m not sure if lowering estradiol would increase Free Test and I’m not sure the difference between Free Test and Bio-available.


#11

Estradiol is NOT high. How is a 28 pg/ml figure high? fT is low, which is weird with SHBG=19. I put in your numbers on calculator, your fT and bio T is higher than this test which i find really weird, the values don’t correlate to the SHBG,TT and Albumin concentrations.

According to the calculator:

Bio T= 314 ng/dl(This is decent)
fT= 12 ng/dl (bad to normal)

However, overall there does not seem to be a problem, especially your symptoms you say are not bad. Correct me if i’m wrong you said your libido was high? T is not optimal but i don’t think is responsible for your symptoms. LH/FSH are good. No one will be willing to treat these numbers which would unfortunate if you had symptoms of low T.


#12

A small dose of anastrozole, 0.5mg/week in divided EOD doses may lead to some improvements. Dosing that small needs a liquid where you can dispense by the drop.

Your low iron status does not really fit with the rest of your CBC.
Are you eating red meat?
Any digestive problems or food allergies/sensitivities?
Any iron in your supplements, cereals, bread?

I suspect that if you did TRT with high normal TT, FT, your HTC [hematocrit] may be a problem.

Please read these links found here: About the T Replacement Category
advice for new guys
things that damage your hormones


#13

I have GERD and take protonix. I don’t take anything with iron supplements. I eat red meat, but mainly eat fish. I doubt I can get my hands on anastrozole though. With a TT at 474, no doctor is going to prescribe me anything.


#14

Sometimes one needs to self medicate. You are looking to see if this helps. Read the stickies and understand issues re anastrozole over-responders - then you will understand something that few doctors understand. You may feel a positive change, but you need labs to see whats going on. This may not improve things, but you will then know that it did not help.

https://www.google.com/search?q=anstrozole+liquid&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=liquid+anastrozole+research+chemical
Try 4 drops EOD. You need a dropper and sometimes that is an additional item.

You had questions above that are addressed in those stickies.

Try to get more iron in your diet.
My typical concern when I see males with signs of low iron is that there might be a GI blood loss.
Did we touch on this in another thread? Again, your labs present contradictory signals. An occult blood test can rule the GI bleed in/out as a consideration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_iron-binding_capacity#Usual_values

Urologists are often useless and unfortunately, endos can be too.
See the finding a TRT doc sticky.


#15

I’m not against self medicating by any means, I just am iffy about buying “research” chemicals online for legal and health reasons. I mean, how is the legality when it comes to that?
As far as iron, couldn’t I just take an iron supplement, or switch to a multi-vitamin that has iron? Also, I am taking calcium, but as you see my calcium level is high. I’m wondering if I should keep taking calcium, if I need to spend my money calcium supplementation.


#16

Your calcium is fine.
Why are you taking supplemental calcium?
Calcium levels are tightly controlled. If blood levels are a bit low, calcium is taken from the bones. If bones are loosing calcium, it gets excreted. Calcium lab levels hardly move at all.

An anastrozole is not a schedule III drug. You decide what is important.

Iron: You could take an iron supplement and mask the problem. But you should do an occult blood test to try to understand why your iron is low. Males simply do not have low iron unless something unusual is going on. Low iron is the symptom.

How old are you? In the advice for new guys sticky I do ask for a lot of information.


#17

I’ll be 28 next month. That’s if my doctor will give me a slip for the test. I’m taking calcium just to ensure I get enough, since I take protonix and know that it can cause malabsorption, although minuscule. It’ll be a month before I see my doctor, so maybe I should take iron until then. Here is a list of the supplements I take:
Nature Made Men’s Multi-Vitamin

Magnesium Citrate 400mg

Zinc Picolinate 50mg

Calcium Carbonate 600mg

Fish Oil EPA 648mg DHA 432mg

Vitamin D 4,000IU

Kelp 600mg with Iodine 360mcg

Selenium 200mcg(When needed/on days I don’t eat tuna which is rare)

I eat a lot of tuna and my mercury levels on one of my earlier tests came back as 7 and the range I believe was 0-10.


#18

Last questions, for tonight anyway. If I can get anastrozole, could I just get Novadex also, or is that a bad idea at this point to take both? Would anastrozole be enough to get me where I want to be? I looked at the price at both and can afford to take both.


#19

If you do nolva, do a very small dose. You probably don’t need much of a boost to improve your numbers. The SERM will likely boost your E2 into an uncomfortable range so definitely have the arimidex on hand.


#20

Well the Nolva is out, since I didn’t pay attention to the actual size and pricing, it only equates to one use of 30mg. Anyway, I’m still thinking of taking that OTC SERM, since I’ve seen blood work on it and it probably doesn’t rival Nolva, but is probably good for a little bump. Also, I still might try OTC AI Inhibit-E, or Arimistane first; get blood work on OTC Rebirth taken twice daily and OTC AI Inhibit-E , or Armistane taken once every other day. If that doesn’t work, I’ll go look into anastrozole. At worse, I’ll just waste some money, but at least I’ll know if it works, or not. The only thing I worry about Inhibit-E is being TOO strong since it’s meant for PCT, but it’s dosed at 3 pills a day. I figure one Inhibit-E pill every other day will be enough for the AI. I might try Armistane first to avoid FD&C Blue #1. Even though Rebirth also has dye(Blue #1) studies on Blue #1 seem to all checkout fine. FD&C Blue #1 has some iffy studies when it comes to the potential risk of neuro-toxicity. Yes, I like to avoid dyes and added chemicals.


#21

Where are you going that one nolva pill is all you can afford for a month?

A 20mg pill is 35 cents.

Clomid is 33 cents for 2 doses of 25mg.

Are you trolling us?