T Nation

Using AI's As a Standalone?

That you shouldn’t bother reading any further if you don’t like answering dumb questions.

That being said…

  1. Could you use AI’s such as arimidex or nolva as a standalone? (obviously I know you wouldn’t see gains, but I just got curious as to what would happen if you did)
  2. How little would it help?
  3. Are AI’s tested for?
  4. How bad are AI’s at MEGA doses?

AGAIN! These questions are just musings and you shouldn’t bother answering them unless you just like talking about ridiculous things. I DON’T plan on actually trying something like this, I was just wondering what would happen if someone did.

  1. Yes, a dose that keeps estrogen low-normal can be taken and is of some benefit.

  2. There is no value, except against estrogen-dependent cancers, in driving estrogen below normal: in fact it is undesirable. So mega-dosing is not a good thing to do.

Ok that’s what I wanted to know… but now I have another question.

If this is true, and I’m not doubting at all, why are OTC AI’s so popular? i.e. ArimaTEST, Nolvadex, Epistane?

2x what the Mighty Bill Roberts has said. There is some merit to a such a protocol but “why”? As far as OTC AI are concerned they aren’t drugs, they are dietary supplements. Its like taking a butter knife to gun fight.

Nolvadex and Epistane are absolutely not Aromatase Inhibitors (AI). Nolvadex is a SERM and epistane is a an anabolic steroid.

I don’t think armiatest is an AI either. I think it has ATD in it. The same stuff in novedex xt.

I actually started a thread on this exact topic about a year ago. I’ll look for it.

EDIT

voila!

Why a benefit?

On account of higher free T and at least in some cases a change in fat pattern distribution – easier to be lean on the legs, upper arms, and chest with low normal estrogen than midrange or high normal.

Your speaking of the AI admin or both AI and SERM admin Bill? My (possibly flawed) mentality is that the change would be too subtle to notice leading to my “Why?” statement.

I was referring to AI’s: I forgot to address the point of the OP confusing Nolvadex with being an AI.

I don’t think the resulting higher free T is a dramatically noticeable difference in the case of someone with good free T in the first place, but there has to be some difference.

Actually for years I said that while the theory was good, in practice Arimidex did not seem to be a performance enhancer for those with normal testosterone. However I was basing this on younger guys, and I now think I was wrong, that even with younger guys if there is an increase in free T there has to be SOME benefit, though definitely not necessarily and in fact often not obvious.

By younger I mean in their twenties or early 30s with good testosterone naturally.

It was a certain fact that older guys, by which here I mean in there 50s and up, did routinely find performance enhancement from aromatase inhibition at correct levels.

Probably a better way to put that than age, but I didn’t have the data to do it, would be in terms of estrogen levels.

If naturally your estrogen levels are near the low end of the normal range, then there just is not much room for improvement. But if midrange then more room for improvement, or if at the higher end, quite considerable room for improvement. There is some correlation with age in this, hence I suppose my previous observation of age dependence.

Intersting since I have some adex on hand?

What you does the AI and for how long?

Would using this AI like this, lower the effect when run with High does test? Like downgrading the receptors because of prolonged use?

The dosage of Arimidex required for low normal estrogen is quite variable according to the individual, and also according to whether not taking any testosterone or if taking it, how much (the more testosterone, the more aromatase inhibitor needed to maintain low normal estrogen.) Fortunately testing, especially salivary, is not expensive.

I don’t think there is a reduction in anabolic effect, so long as still in the normal range, but can’t swear to zero (just don’t have the basis to say it’s zero.)

There isn’t an issue with receptors.

[quote]Beershoes wrote:
Ok that’s what I wanted to know… but now I have another question.

If this is true, and I’m not doubting at all, why are OTC AI’s so popular? i.e. ArimaTEST, Nolvadex, Epistane?[/quote]

NOLVAdex is not an OTC nor is it an AI. NOLVA must either be acquired through a research supply company (for non-human use, of course) or with a doctor’s prescription. Nolvadex is a SERM (selective estrogen receptor modulator).

NOVEdex XT is a stupid supplement that Gaspari sells to teenagers who are running prohormone cycles and think they are getting a legit SERM for their post cycle. Snake oil really.

Epistane is a methylated anabolic steroid that inhibits aromatase. You will most likely get a sizable estrogen rebound after going off of epistane if you do not use a SERM and then taper off of that. Don’t ask me how or why its still legal. Its a potent steroid and Iv seen it yield 10-15 lbs of fairly dry gains in 4-6 weeks of usage at 30mg/day in those who havent used heavily in the past.

Im pretty sure Arimatest is a similar product to Novedex xt.

This is why you shouldnt take things that claim to be hormonal in nature without first doing your research. You might be getting ripped off or on the opposite hand, get much more than you bargained for.

This is option is made available due to the popularity of the research chem I’m sure due to the fact that a box of genuine Arimidex, that I’ve seen, costs $148. You bet your ass youll try 1/4 tabs with those prices.

First I’d like to thank EVERYONE who contributed to this post, it’s guys like you who help guys like me better understand the supplement market. I appreciate the comments on what Nolvedex XT really is, and while I have not taken it in the past, I have taken arimatest (similar). One of the reasons I stopped taking these, and various other ph’s, is largely due to the opinions on this site. Although I do have an extra bottle of epistane I’ve been wondering about taking for a while now. I would love to get on real gear, but I’m worried because I live in close quarters with others. I’m hoping that in the near future this will become a possibility. Thanks again for all the help, and I hope you all keep the suggestions coming.

One more thing…

What’s your opinion on taking that last bottle of epistane? And how should I PCT it?

[quote]Beershoes wrote:
First I’d like to thank EVERYONE who contributed to this post, it’s guys like you who help guys like me better understand the supplement market. I appreciate the comments on what Nolvedex XT really is, and while I have not taken it in the past, I have taken arimatest (similar). One of the reasons I stopped taking these, and various other ph’s, is largely due to the opinions on this site. Although I do have an extra bottle of epistane I’ve been wondering about taking for a while now. I would love to get on real gear, but I’m worried because I live in close quarters with others. I’m hoping that in the near future this will become a possibility. Thanks again for all the help, and I hope you all keep the suggestions coming.

One more thing…

What’s your opinion on taking that last bottle of epistane? And how should I PCT it?[/quote]

Epistane is a steroid, so it gets the same serm based pct as any other steroid could get.

Read the PH sticky or the SERM/AI sticky if you need to be reminded of the details.

Thanks again.

Here is an article about letrozole you might find useful.

mesomorphosis.com/articles/dharkam/
letrozole-instead-of-anabolic-steroids.htm

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Nolvadex and Epistane are absolutely not Aromatase Inhibitors (AI). Nolvadex is a SERM and epistane is a an anabolic steroid.

I don’t think armiatest is an AI either. I think it has ATD in it. The same stuff in novedex xt. [/quote]

ATD is an AI. Epistane is a steroid albeit one that acts like an AI.

“NOVEdex XT is a stupid supplement that Gaspari sells to teenagers who are running prohormone cycles and think they are getting a legit SERM for their post cycle. Snake oil really.”

That is not true. ATD is not stupid, it isn’t snake oil, and no knowledgeable person would confuse it for an SERM. What it is is an effective, second-gen OTC AI. It is the successor to 6-oxo.

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-US&q=novedex+xt+baylor

[quote]Beershoes wrote:
Ok that’s what I wanted to know… but now I have another question.

If this is true, and I’m not doubting at all, why are OTC AI’s so popular? i.e. ArimaTEST, Nolvadex, Epistane?[/quote]

There is no logical answer to that question. The “illogical” answer is that the two classes of products are popular with two very different crowds.

Gear users generally don’t bother with OTC supplements. Anything that isn’t hormonal is a waste of time to them (or “snake oil”, as they like to claim even for legitimate, proven supplements). Since they’ve already taken “the plunge”, they distrust anything that is available OTC and would prefer to use prescription drugs for their entire cycle, from anabolics to AI’s to SERM’s.

Regular supplement users typically haven’t tried gear, so they are not used to the types of gains experienced by users. They are, consequently, much more likely to get excited about anything that “works”, even if it produces only a fraction of the gains made possible by anabolics.

On the supplement spectrum, AI’s occupy the high end. They are some of the most effective supplements legally obtainable (not counting PH’s which are just legal anabolics).

But even a high-end supplement does not match the effectiveness of a low-end anabolic. That’s why users of real gear are so disdainful of supplements in general.

Two different crowds with different standards, you see.

However, if there is a parity between OTC and prescription products in any category, it is AI’s. OTC AI’s have been shown to be extremely effective and easily rival their prescription counterparts. Yes, that “snake oil” from Gaspari really does exactly what it says.

And yes, there are mild gains to be had in using standalone AI’s, either OTC or RX. The roid crowd just doesn’t like to acknowledge the efficacy of anything which doesn’t result in 15 lbs. of muscle gain in 30 days.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
However, if there is a parity between OTC and prescription products in any category, it is AI’s. OTC AI’s have been shown to be extremely effective and easily rival their prescription counterparts. Yes, that “snake oil” from Gaspari really does exactly what it says. [/quote]

These are overstatements and also missing it on some points.

Yes, I know they have a study they tout, but it’s horrifically flawed.

It does “exactly what it says” in terms of raising testosterone by means of a measurement method counting one of the ingredients as being testosterone, which it’s not, nor is it an androgen at all.

The ATD is an effective anti-aromatase but does not, IMO, rate as high as the pharmaceuticals due to being an anti-androgen. So dosage needs to be held down to a modest effect.

There’s a thread on this already so it doesn’t bear repeating any further.

It may not be as effective on a gram-for-gram basis, but the point is that it is a legit AI which has a comparable effect to the prescription drugs.

People have had bloodwork done to prove this.

Topical AI’s including ATD and Formestane are widely available and have been rated very highly by people who have used both types of products.