You don’t agree eh? well thanks for hi-jacking my thread.
You just royally pissed me off.
Here I am just trying to relay information to those who have chosen to use the test taper. I wasn’t trying to start another debate. God knows I spent enought time going through that with Anthony Roberts and others back in 2005, 2006. Read the threads, most members will agree I won those debates, and the success stories that have followed since are continued proof that the testosterone taper does work.
As I said the purpose of the test taper is to return the body to homeostasis. You would rather add a whole bunch other drugs into the mix instead thinking that the body is is like an old car that needs a little bit of gasoline placed on top of the piston head to get it started. What B.S. And it is this b.s. that I intially got angry about that certain self perclaimed ‘guru’s’ were spreading.
Please refer to my test taper thread regarding why I believe a weekly protocol of hcg is NOT needed.
In fact we have no way of knowing exactly how much hcg is equipotent to LH that the pituitary secretes so I don’t understand how you can claim that you can successfully taper off using a foreign chemical structure in your body without causing receptor changes at the leydig cells.
I understand your reasoning though, and I have to say that Intitially I was sold on the method… hell in 2004 I used the weekly hcg protocol as Swale had laid out and then tapered the hcg off and added the nolva just like you have stated, and was able to pretty much acertain that the method did not work . Yes my test production was great - hell even on 100 i.u. of hcg, but as soon as the hcg stopped I crashed. ended up having the test levels of an old man and had to go back on a testosterone hrt untill I was ready for my next cycle. This led me to conclude that the problem was at the leydig receptors - my LH was not having a sufficient effect on my leydig receptors to stimulate testosterone production.
So, back to the drawing board, and hence with a little help from Cy Wilson, the prisoner#22 test taper.
Now just to clear things up: I stated anti E because I mean both. I personally believe that it is best to remove all foreign drugs from your body.
You seem to think that the body is incapable of recognizing when it is testosterone deficient, and needs a SERM to get it going. This is completely wrong. all negative feedback loops work by means of recognising a deficiency at the Receptor that controls the mechanism to secrete more hormone. This is the exact way a SERM works - it blocks estrogen from binding to the receptor so that the receptor thinks there is no estrogen. So why is it that you can’t get it around your head when the body is actually estrogen deficient because testosterone levels have dropped sufficiently low enough that the Hypothalmus would not recognize this and begin secreting FSH???
Do individuals who are completely Natural (meaning never taken steroids) have to have their test levels drop to Zero before their hpta will kick in and produce more testosteorne???
That of course was a rhetorical question.
But a great way of explaining how you can actually be tapering testosterone exogenously and have your own hpta kick in to start producing it’s own share of the load.
Now since the taper is a gradual process, can you not see how you can gradually recover full function of your testes?
or another way of putting it: gradually recovery full production of the testosterone in your body?
As I said before, since AAS is suppressing to one part of the hpta, why would you want to mess with another part of the hpta by adding hcg?
It’s like yeah, lets fuck with the fuel lines of the car, but also lets fuck up the ignition system as well!
Not too logical.
and then think that a Serm will fix all that.
And by the way your little sermon you preached on SERMS above was very confusing and quite contradictory.
do you realise that anastrozole and arimidex are the same drug??
And the importance of tapering off a SERM!!!
I guess you don’t realise that a serm dosn’t effect receptors at all - it merely competes with estrogen at the receptor. Itself exerts a weak estrogenic effect.
It is the AI’s that really need tapering, as they can up regulate the ER and cause all sorts of complications following cessation.
Anyways I am done. The test taper is rock solid. It has withstood all debate. You don’t want to try it that’s fine, but realise that nobody has yet to bring damming theory or research and all that have used the test taper approach have been satisfied with it, and reiterated all that I had said would happen.
Now I am tired of regurgitating old arguments and old battles that I clearly won. So stay out of my way. I am just trying to help people, not baffle them with a whole lot of confusing hodge podge quotes, big words and collections of illogic. If this is your way of making people think that you are smart and some how knowledgable about AAS, bodybuilding and training, you are definitely not helping your cause.
You want to start your own thread go right a head.
But don’t clutter mine up with the circus that is the inside of your head!
I do not agree.
Some will have significant testicular shrinkage. You expect the testes to respond to LH during PCT, but they are often not in a physical state where they can respond to LH when that starts back up. A SERM can get the physical recovery of the testes underway to that they can be better able to produce T when LH comes naturally. Alternatively, one can start things with proper doses of HCG or use HCG all through a cycle so the testes never get turned off or shrunken.
HCG must never be used in huge doses. That can cause permanent harm. Use TRT dosing such as 250iu EOD. If using HCG as part of PCT, you can front load to some degree, but injecting 2000iu at once or such is really wrong.
“I firmly believe there isn’t a need for any serm use at all during the taper, since the entire focus of the taper is returning the body to NATURAL homeostasis.” -you cannot have anything normal with shrunken testes. Recovery of the size and LH responsiveness of the testes takes time.
Anti-E is a term that encompasses AIs and SERMs. This causes confusion.
AIs: Arimidex/anastrozole will never maintain the HPTA during an aromatizing cycle. Arimidex simply cannot do that. T is also an negative feedback signal to the HPTA, as are the other estrogens, HDT and progesterone. Femara can take E2 very low. Arimidex is preferred as it will not typically take E below 17pg/ml. (But there are some rare individuals who need around 1/8th to 1/0th of an expected dose of arimidex.)
SERMs can keep the HPTA working, LH is produced, often at rates higher than one has when off cycle and recovered. SERMs have side effects, anastrozole does not.
My approach is that the testes should not be shutdown at all, never. Use HCG during the cycle, into SERM during taper to get the hypothalamus and pituitary releasing LH and taper off of SERM after all aromatizing gear is cleared. HCG is tapered off rather quickly after the SERM is started during the taper while T levels are still supportive. SERMs must never be stopped suddenly, aways taper off of a SERM. SERMs increase or maintain above normal E levels. Stopping a SERM suddenly exposes the HPTA and other tissues to those E levels. Using an AI during this time has obvious benefits.
Use an AI all through the cycle, taper and PCT and for some time after that at TRT dose levels [1.0 - 1.5mg/wk].
There are many ways to do all of these things. There are also many who have used gear and done ‘the right things’ who and up on TRT at a young age because their testes will not work right. One has to consider what one is doing to their testes with any given program.
I am not a lifter, but I can say, you don’t know what you’ve got until you loosse it… a perspective of age and needing TRT.[/quote]