T Nation

Use of Force Laws

Someone has recently cautioned me about our Krav habit of insisting our students not stop striking during a drill when the instructor yells “Stop! Stop!” or for any other reason, except maybe to vomit.

I’ve told my students to only stop for two things: 1 - the threat is neutralized & they can escape to safety or 2 - the cops have arrived & they are the ones telling you to stop.

In fact, if they stop when I say “stop”, I smack them with a pad & yell “GO!”

Some of the cops I train with, when I asked them, told me that in Texas you just have to prove you acted as a “reasonable person” would in the face of the threat. In fact, you are expected to defend yourself vigorously. We have very lenient use of force laws for civilians in Texas. Especially for females (sorry guys). Every cop I talked to told me I could pretty much beat the hell out of someone who threatened me & get away with it because I’m female - but most of my students are male, so its a serious issue for them.

Do any of y’all have experience with this stuff? I’m wondering what the standards are in other states and countries, and what your viewpoints are.

Generally you can use force if someone initiated force or you’re in imminent danger and continue to use force until the person isn’t a threat.

Use of force is one of those things that everyone should check their local laws about. I doubt it’s the same in NJ as it is in Texas.

Generally if you’re acting in self defense, once the person is no longer considered a threat, you’ve got to stop. That means if you peg him once and he drops, if you jump on and keep pounding, you’re asking for aggravated assault charges.

From what I’ve seen it’s at this point, when the guy drops or is no longer a threat, that shit turns from possible self defense, at the most simple assault, to aggravated assault or attempted murder. It’s the chest pounding bullshit, the walking around talking shit, and then standing over someone and giving them a couple extra kicks that gets you locked up no matter who started it.

And, if you kick them in the face, it’s attempted murder, or at least assault with a deadly weapon.

Also, if you’re trianing them not to stop “unless it’s a cop,” who’s to say they’re going to know who’s a cop and who’s not? Or, that with the adrenal dump, they’ll even listen at all? Escaping to safety should be the big concern- not beating the guy to a bloody pulp.

Gotta be careful with that Parker. You’re in dangerous waters there, as we all are when it comes to any legal issue.

That’s the part of self defense that should be addressed more often… good question.

Yea, i agree with the previous post, i go to a very serious self defense school and the teahcer is a state trooper for 20+ years…we are taught to handle the threat immediately when you feel threatened and escape the situation as soon as possible…your training is used to get you out of the situation alive, not to pound someone into a coma after you have already neutralized them and dealt with the threat…

that extra beating on the ground will really only get YOU in trouble even if you didnt start it, and you never know how many of his freinds may be coming to the situations…so put simply, defend yourself and get out of there…

good info so far…

generally speaking, you’re reasonably allowed to defend yourself, your family and your property. now reasonable is the term that becomes the issue…how that’s interpreted is up to the county attorney.

from a law enforcement background, one of the keys is knowing how the cops act in the area. the town i work for is one of the roughest in the state, so we tend to be a lot more leniant on little things.

for instance, this farm boy-wrestler type got jumped a while back by 5 guys, and he stomped them. broke one’s jaw, and anothers’ orbital bone. the guys that started it pushed the issue, so they all got charged with Disorderly Conduct (a simple misdemeanor, for fighting in public).

if you can prove the self-defense issue, then there should be no charges, but obviously the manner is the isssue. if you kick a guy in the balls and run, you’re prolly good. if you KO someone and curb stomp 'em, then there’s prolly gonna be issues…

crap-i forgot to respond to your training question…

i think as long as your goal is to subdue the attacker (by various methods) and then escape, i think that is an appropriate way to train. realistically, almost all other martial arts training doesn’t address that, and i don’t recall hearing that come up…

It sounds like you are programming people to have tunnel vision and not be responsive to their environment in a fight. Two of the very worst things you can do in martial arts. I know Texas is a big state but it isn’t the entire world. What you can get away with in Texas can put you in jail for life in the other 49 states and other countries. If you ever plan on traveling outside of Texas you probably don’t want to be a programmed, mindless, killer.

What I was taught by a lawyer and some cops is you use force proportionate to the percieved threat. If your response is disproportionate to the threat that is when you open yourself up to legal problems. Not every confrontation is going to be life or death. Or the circumstances may not be cut and dry in your favor. You might get a witness who didn’t see someone attack you, all they might have seen is you beat that person to death while they begged you to stop.

What you are teaching your students can also expose YOU to legal liabilities. If one of your students beats someone to death while people are begging them to stop and that is what you are teaching people to do, you could end up in trouble.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
It sounds like you are programming people to have tunnel vision and not be responsive to their environment in a fight. Two of the very worst things you can do in martial arts. I know Texas is a big state but it isn’t the entire world. What you can get away with in Texas can put you in jail for life in the other 49 states and other countries. If you ever plan on traveling outside of Texas you probably don’t want to be a programmed, mindless, killer.

What I was taught by a lawyer and some cops is you use force proportionate to the percieved threat. If your response is disproportionate to the threat that is when you open yourself up to legal problems. Not every confrontation is going to be life or death. Or the circumstances may not be cut and dry in your favor. You might get a witness who didn’t see someone attack you, all they might have seen is you beat that person to death while they begged you to stop.

What you are teaching your students can also expose YOU to legal liabilities. If one of your students beats someone to death while people are begging them to stop and that is what you are teaching people to do, you could end up in trouble.
[/quote]

i don’t thnik that’s what she’s saying…this is from her post:

I’ve told my students to only stop for two things: 1 - the threat is neutralized & they can escape to safety or 2 - the cops have arrived & they are the ones telling you to stop.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
It sounds like you are programming people to have tunnel vision and not be responsive to their environment in a fight. Two of the very worst things you can do in martial arts. I know Texas is a big state but it isn’t the entire world. What you can get away with in Texas can put you in jail for life in the other 49 states and other countries. If you ever plan on traveling outside of Texas you probably don’t want to be a programmed, mindless, killer.

What I was taught by a lawyer and some cops is you use force proportionate to the percieved threat. If your response is disproportionate to the threat that is when you open yourself up to legal problems. Not every confrontation is going to be life or death. Or the circumstances may not be cut and dry in your favor. You might get a witness who didn’t see someone attack you, all they might have seen is you beat that person to death while they begged you to stop.

What you are teaching your students can also expose YOU to legal liabilities. If one of your students beats someone to death while people are begging them to stop and that is what you are teaching people to do, you could end up in trouble.
[/quote]

All good points.

I really appreciate all y’all’s responses, guys. I talked about it a little in class this weekend. Got them exhausted so they’d crave a moment to sit down & listen, then asked the biggest guy in class to come up. I talked about what constitutes a real threat a bit, pointed out our obvious size difference & put him in front of the door & opened it to provide a clear means of escape. Then I went across the room & shook my fist at him, yelling, “Why didn’t you call?! You said you’d call me! I’m gonna kick your ass!!” The class laughed & we talked about how I wasn’t a threat to this big ol’ boy & he could escape if he really did need to. Then I closed the door & locked it, got him in a modified headlock & put a (rubber) knife to his throat & said menacingly, “If I can’t have you, nobody can!” Of course, they said he should be defending himself, fighting hard, etc.

We talked about what a “reasonable person” would do in various circumstances, and how you must be able to articulate to the police why you acted as you did. It was sort of a ham-handed introduction to the idea of how to act under various levels of threat. I’m preparing them for Rory Miller’s visit on April 10 (he’s the guy who wrote Meditations on Violence).

Next week we’re going to talk about pre-fight signs, and when & why to make the first strike in a confrontation. If y’all have any opinions on that subject, I’ll be happy to consider them as I plan the lesson, then report how it goes.

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
It sounds like you are programming people to have tunnel vision and not be responsive to their environment in a fight. Two of the very worst things you can do in martial arts. I know Texas is a big state but it isn’t the entire world. What you can get away with in Texas can put you in jail for life in the other 49 states and other countries. If you ever plan on traveling outside of Texas you probably don’t want to be a programmed, mindless, killer.

What I was taught by a lawyer and some cops is you use force proportionate to the percieved threat. If your response is disproportionate to the threat that is when you open yourself up to legal problems. Not every confrontation is going to be life or death. Or the circumstances may not be cut and dry in your favor. You might get a witness who didn’t see someone attack you, all they might have seen is you beat that person to death while they begged you to stop.

What you are teaching your students can also expose YOU to legal liabilities. If one of your students beats someone to death while people are begging them to stop and that is what you are teaching people to do, you could end up in trouble.
[/quote]

i don’t thnik that’s what she’s saying…this is from her post:

I’ve told my students to only stop for two things: 1 - the threat is neutralized & they can escape to safety or 2 - the cops have arrived & they are the ones telling you to stop.
[/quote]

I understand what she wrote. So…

#1 I’ve been a real fight where a guy had to tackle me off of his best friend. Because of tunnel vision I didn’t pay enough attention to the guy who tackled me. If he hadn’t stopped me when he did I might have had some explaining to do because I got a little excited beating on his boy.

#2 When the cops arrive it doesn’t look good if you continue to beat on someone instead of trying to get away from them.

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
It sounds like you are programming people to have tunnel vision and not be responsive to their environment in a fight. Two of the very worst things you can do in martial arts. I know Texas is a big state but it isn’t the entire world. What you can get away with in Texas can put you in jail for life in the other 49 states and other countries. If you ever plan on traveling outside of Texas you probably don’t want to be a programmed, mindless, killer.

What I was taught by a lawyer and some cops is you use force proportionate to the percieved threat. If your response is disproportionate to the threat that is when you open yourself up to legal problems. Not every confrontation is going to be life or death. Or the circumstances may not be cut and dry in your favor. You might get a witness who didn’t see someone attack you, all they might have seen is you beat that person to death while they begged you to stop.

What you are teaching your students can also expose YOU to legal liabilities. If one of your students beats someone to death while people are begging them to stop and that is what you are teaching people to do, you could end up in trouble.
[/quote]

i don’t thnik that’s what she’s saying…this is from her post:

I’ve told my students to only stop for two things: 1 - the threat is neutralized & they can escape to safety or 2 - the cops have arrived & they are the ones telling you to stop.
[/quote]

I understand what she wrote. So…

#1 I’ve been a real fight where a guy had to tackle me off of his best friend. Because of tunnel vision I didn’t pay enough attention to the guy who tackled me. If he hadn’t stopped me when he did I might have had some explaining to do because I got a little excited beating on his boy.

#2 When the cops arrive it doesn’t look good if you continue to beat on someone instead of trying to get away from them.
[/quote]

okay, she covered these points in her post, so you’re not paying attention to what she wrote. she knows what she’s doing in her teaching, she was just looking for some additional points to make to her students. and obviously i know what it looks like when the cops respond, since that’s what i do.

so to cover #1 and #2:

she stated, that she teaches her students to engage the threat and escape as soon as safely possible, not to do what you did in #1.

and she stated that she teaches her students to repsond to law enforcement, so not to do what you said in #2.

jesus, it’s not that hard to read what people write…

if you have to attack, do so until there is no more threat or you can escape. As in, the person stops attacking you out in the streets. This has been confirmed by most beat cops in my area and my dad who has to fill out excessive use of force reports for practically sneezing at his job. You can use any force needed to preserve your life.

Beating on someone in a submissive state, ie…grounded, constitutes excessive use of force and will get you locked up even if you were “defending” yourself depending on witness accounts and most importantly, the opinion of the officer on the scene.

If you have to use force in your home, thats a completely different matter, especially in Texas. Here, if someone attacks you in your home, you can respond with as much force as you want to.

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
I really appreciate all y’all’s responses, guys. I talked about it a little in class this weekend. Got them exhausted so they’d crave a moment to sit down & listen, then asked the biggest guy in class to come up. I talked about what constitutes a real threat a bit, pointed out our obvious size difference & put him in front of the door & opened it to provide a clear means of escape. Then I went across the room & shook my fist at him, yelling, “Why didn’t you call?! You said you’d call me! I’m gonna kick your ass!!” The class laughed & we talked about how I wasn’t a threat to this big ol’ boy & he could escape if he really did need to. Then I closed the door & locked it, got him in a modified headlock & put a (rubber) knife to his throat & said menacingly, “If I can’t have you, nobody can!” Of course, they said he should be defending himself, fighting hard, etc.

We talked about what a “reasonable person” would do in various circumstances, and how you must be able to articulate to the police why you acted as you did. It was sort of a ham-handed introduction to the idea of how to act under various levels of threat. I’m preparing them for Rory Miller’s visit on April 10 (he’s the guy who wrote Meditations on Violence).

Next week we’re going to talk about pre-fight signs, and when & why to make the first strike in a confrontation. If y’all have any opinions on that subject, I’ll be happy to consider them as I plan the lesson, then report how it goes.[/quote]

one suggestion i have to add to your training, is maybe have some local law enforcement come in and either a) evaluate your training from their perspective or b) act as a role player, in their response to a fight, so your students are training in repsond to the police.

in refernece to pre-fight indicators, this is really tricky business from a legal perspective. i’ve had to explain this in court a lot, about a suspect “squaring up,”, having tunnel vision, flexing hands, etc. this works for me, since i’m only taking them down and handcuffing them. but for a citizen, they are going to have to be very clear about all the circumstances in addition to the pre-fight indicators, from a legal perspective.

sounds good, though, and i think you’re doing the right thing to expose them to legal ramifications, etc.

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

act as a role player, in their response to a fight, so your students are training in repsond to the police.

[/quote]

I love this!! I am totally doing this. We have loads of cops at our place, I just have to get them to show up in uniform. Thank you so much!

Just to be clear to everyone, I’m not trying to train people to be mindless killing machines. We do teach them to render an attacker incapable of continuing their attack so we can make a safe escape. That could be something as simple as dropping them with a knee to the solar plexus & running away (or insert other non-lethal technique here). I’m just trying to temper that directive, which I do believe in, by making the class mindful of the consequences of going too far. That’s why I’m asking these questions.

I don’t want them to stop their defense just because someone tells them to IF THEY BELIEVE THEY ARE STILL IN DANGER. Sorry for all caps, last time I tried to italicize it didn’t work.

I want them to use their brains. Same reason we did a drill last week where they escaped a choke & had to run to the locked front door of the school & use my keys to open the door & get in. They had a few seconds head start & then Matt or I ran up behind & attacked them again. Everyone who got in left the keys in the lock where we could get them. Bad! Everyone who failed to get in on time also failed to turn & fight us. They just got more & more panicked as the we got closer & finally attacked. Now that they’ve experienced that, they can fix it.

From what I have seen, people have to experience these things physically for the lesson to set in. Its not enough to tell someone “keep fighting”. They have to make the decision of what to do in real time, and face immediate consequences for whatever decision they make, good or bad.

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

act as a role player, in their response to a fight, so your students are training in repsond to the police.

[/quote]

I love this!! I am totally doing this. We have loads of cops at our place, I just have to get them to show up in uniform. Thank you so much!

Just to be clear to everyone, I’m not trying to train people to be mindless killing machines. We do teach them to render an attacker incapable of continuing their attack so we can make a safe escape. That could be something as simple as dropping them with a knee to the solar plexus & running away (or insert other non-lethal technique here). I’m just trying to temper that directive, which I do believe in, by making the class mindful of the consequences of going too far. That’s why I’m asking these questions.

I don’t want them to stop their defense just because someone tells them to IF THEY BELIEVE THEY ARE STILL IN DANGER. Sorry for all caps, last time I tried to italicize it didn’t work.

I want them to use their brains. Same reason we did a drill last week where they escaped a choke & had to run to the locked front door of the school & use my keys to open the door & get in. They had a few seconds head start & then Matt or I ran up behind & attacked them again. Everyone who got in left the keys in the lock where we could get them. Bad! Everyone who failed to get in on time also failed to turn & fight us. They just got more & more panicked as the we got closer & finally attacked. Now that they’ve experienced that, they can fix it.

From what I have seen, people have to experience these things physically for the lesson to set in. Its not enough to tell someone “keep fighting”. They have to make the decision of what to do in real time, and face immediate consequences for whatever decision they make, good or bad.

[/quote]

glad to help out!

i like how you’re approaching the training…i think a lot of people get locked into training technique, sparring, etc. when training for self defense, but forget about evironmental variables. at my PD we used to do a lot of traiditional defensive tatics stuff, but have integrated a lot of stuff in the last few years, for the better.

A few people have already mentioned the effects of appearances & perception in regards to the potential legal ramifications of self-defense. In many situations, exactly when witnesses and/or police start observing the defender’s actions can produce a consensus that could be very far from the reality (or at least very far from how the defender perceived the threat).

Let me use an example of an old friendly acquaintance of mine. The guy had a neurological injury that vastly decreased his pain threshhold, especially in his torso and neck. It wasn’t as severe as people with CIPA or similar congenital conditions that utterly remove all physical pain sensations, but the guy had the pain threshold of a Kodiac bear. That, plus in his late teens/early 20’s he had a severe aggression problem (though a couple months in county really chilled him out). End result is, I had seen someone actually get him on the ground, grab his head, and smack the back of his head into a hard-packed dirt area of ground…several times. The guy on top stood up and started to back off, and this guy got up and continued his attack. If a witness saw someone pounding someone’s head into the ground, the pound-er would almost definitely be seen as the bad guy, but incredible use of force would be mandatory even to give oneself an opportunity to escape if fighting this guy. Far more than would be seen as reasonable with most people.

So, with perceptions being so important when it comes to how the law sees your act of self-defense, especially with the growing cultural attitude in many parts of the western world that any form of violence is wrong, anyone who trains in self-defense needs to ‘train’ in another way. Specifically, you should check around with lawyers in town until you find one that has experience in self-defense cases. Most lawyers will offer an initial consultation for free, so it’s just a matter of taking a few days to research the matter. It’s even more important than getting a police officer’s opinion because a DA on a ‘mission’ might end up charging you a few days later even if the officers involved thought the situation wasn’t a criminal act on your part.

When taking my concealed weapons permit class, taught by an active state policeman, he gave many contrasting cases where the situation seemed nearly identical in his review of police reports, but one case ended in the defender being released and the contrasting defender was sentenced to anything from a few years to life in prison. His opinion was that the critical differences in the contrasting cases was a combination of how the defender interacted with the first police on the scene, combined with the lack of a quality defense lawyer. To paraphrase his advice, there is zero advantage in talking too much to the first responding officers – your blood is going to be up, your responses might not be as clear or supportive to your cause as you think, and as they say, everything you say can be used against you in a court of law. Be polite, but politely explain that you will happily give a statement as soon as you’ve contacted your lawyer.

I don’t like that we have to live in a world where our life and freedom can be so dramatically affected simply on the availability of expensive legal council, but in the United States and many other countries – perhaps most other countries – it is the reality. Many people are in prison who could have avoided it simply because they either started blabbing under questioning, or because they had a completely crap lawyer who couldn’t be bothered to do a good job – regardless of the prisoner’s actual guilt or innocence.

So find that lawyer. You don’t need to keep him on retainer or anything (unless you have that kind of money) but have his card on you at all times, and memorize his number. Your entire future may depend on it.

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
It sounds like you are programming people to have tunnel vision and not be responsive to their environment in a fight. Two of the very worst things you can do in martial arts. I know Texas is a big state but it isn’t the entire world. What you can get away with in Texas can put you in jail for life in the other 49 states and other countries. If you ever plan on traveling outside of Texas you probably don’t want to be a programmed, mindless, killer.

What I was taught by a lawyer and some cops is you use force proportionate to the percieved threat. If your response is disproportionate to the threat that is when you open yourself up to legal problems. Not every confrontation is going to be life or death. Or the circumstances may not be cut and dry in your favor. You might get a witness who didn’t see someone attack you, all they might have seen is you beat that person to death while they begged you to stop.

What you are teaching your students can also expose YOU to legal liabilities. If one of your students beats someone to death while people are begging them to stop and that is what you are teaching people to do, you could end up in trouble.
[/quote]

i don’t thnik that’s what she’s saying…this is from her post:

I’ve told my students to only stop for two things: 1 - the threat is neutralized & they can escape to safety or 2 - the cops have arrived & they are the ones telling you to stop.
[/quote]

I understand what she wrote. So…

#1 I’ve been a real fight where a guy had to tackle me off of his best friend. Because of tunnel vision I didn’t pay enough attention to the guy who tackled me. If he hadn’t stopped me when he did I might have had some explaining to do because I got a little excited beating on his boy.

#2 When the cops arrive it doesn’t look good if you continue to beat on someone instead of trying to get away from them.
[/quote]

okay, she covered these points in her post, so you’re not paying attention to what she wrote. she knows what she’s doing in her teaching, she was just looking for some additional points to make to her students. and obviously i know what it looks like when the cops respond, since that’s what i do.[/quote]

So let me see if I have this right. Let’s say you are called out to deal with a fight. When you arrive one of the combatants reacts to your arrival by trying to get away from his assailant and defend himself from attack. While the other combatant completely ignores you, aggressively pursues his opponent and doesn’t stop until you have to intervene. Would you really treat the more aggressive, more aggitated combatant just the same as the more defensive calmer one?

I could be wrong in my impressions but whenever I watch COPS on TV it always seems to me like the person who is acting the wildest when the cops arrive is the one they put in handcuffs first while saying something nice and reassuring like “this is for your safety” and usually he is the one who goes to jail. While the one who acts the calmest and most civilized around the police gets to stay with the trailer.

My worldview is that when dealing with the police it is beneficial to be calm and act as civilized as possible. I can’t imagine that you would disagree with that view but if you have a different view I am willing to learn.

[quote]

so to cover #1 and #2:

she stated, that she teaches her students to engage the threat and escape as soon as safely possible, not to do what you did in #1.[/quote]

In theory that sounds nice. But in reality it is not too difficult to get excited and carried away.

[quote]

and she stated that she teaches her students to repsond to law enforcement, so not to do what you said in #2. [/quote]

She said that she teaches her students not to stop until the police have actually been forced to intervene to get them stopped.

I don’t think such behaviour is going to help the student when they try to explain that they weren’t the aggressor. Then the other guy can say to the cops you saw how aggressive he was when you arrived he wouldn’t stop, the guy is nuts, he started the fight. Who would you believe? The aggressive one or the one is getting beat up?

[quote]

jesus, it’s not that hard to read what people write… [/quote]

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
It sounds like you are programming people to have tunnel vision and not be responsive to their environment in a fight. Two of the very worst things you can do in martial arts. I know Texas is a big state but it isn’t the entire world. What you can get away with in Texas can put you in jail for life in the other 49 states and other countries. If you ever plan on traveling outside of Texas you probably don’t want to be a programmed, mindless, killer.

What I was taught by a lawyer and some cops is you use force proportionate to the percieved threat. If your response is disproportionate to the threat that is when you open yourself up to legal problems. Not every confrontation is going to be life or death. Or the circumstances may not be cut and dry in your favor. You might get a witness who didn’t see someone attack you, all they might have seen is you beat that person to death while they begged you to stop.

What you are teaching your students can also expose YOU to legal liabilities. If one of your students beats someone to death while people are begging them to stop and that is what you are teaching people to do, you could end up in trouble.
[/quote]

i don’t thnik that’s what she’s saying…this is from her post:

I’ve told my students to only stop for two things: 1 - the threat is neutralized & they can escape to safety or 2 - the cops have arrived & they are the ones telling you to stop.
[/quote]

I understand what she wrote. So…

#1 I’ve been a real fight where a guy had to tackle me off of his best friend. Because of tunnel vision I didn’t pay enough attention to the guy who tackled me. If he hadn’t stopped me when he did I might have had some explaining to do because I got a little excited beating on his boy.

#2 When the cops arrive it doesn’t look good if you continue to beat on someone instead of trying to get away from them.
[/quote]

okay, she covered these points in her post, so you’re not paying attention to what she wrote. she knows what she’s doing in her teaching, she was just looking for some additional points to make to her students. and obviously i know what it looks like when the cops respond, since that’s what i do.[/quote]

So let me see if I have this right. Let’s say you are called out to deal with a fight. When you arrive one of the combatants reacts to your arrival by trying to get away from his assailant and defend himself from attack. While the other combatant completely ignores you, aggressively pursues his opponent and doesn’t stop until you have to intervene. Would you really treat the more aggressive, more aggitated combatant just the same as the more defensive calmer one?

I could be wrong in my impressions but whenever I watch COPS on TV it always seems to me like the person who is acting the wildest when the cops arrive is the one they put in handcuffs first while saying something nice and reassuring like “this is for your safety” and usually he is the one who goes to jail. While the one who acts the calmest and most civilized around the police gets to stay with the trailer.

My worldview is that when dealing with the police it is beneficial to be calm and act as civilized as possible. I can’t imagine that you would disagree with that view but if you have a different view I am willing to learn.

[quote]

so to cover #1 and #2:

she stated, that she teaches her students to engage the threat and escape as soon as safely possible, not to do what you did in #1.[/quote]

In theory that sounds nice. But in reality it is not too difficult to get excited and carried away.

[quote]

and she stated that she teaches her students to repsond to law enforcement, so not to do what you said in #2. [/quote]

She said that she teaches her students not to stop until the police have actually been forced to intervene to get them stopped.

I don’t think such behaviour is going to help the student when they try to explain that they weren’t the aggressor. Then the other guy can say to the cops you saw how aggressive he was when you arrived he wouldn’t stop, the guy is nuts, he started the fight. Who would you believe? The aggressive one or the one is getting beat up?

okay, with all your countering and naysaying, what do you suggest she teach? don’t fight back??

this is the combat forum, full of people that trian martial arts, but i guarantee most of them have never had extended preparation with the legal response to their actions. again, Miss Parker already clarified this several times what she’s teaching in refernce to a legal response, which is good advice, IMO.

i don’t understand what you’re arguing. i think you’re just fishing for an argument…

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[/quote]

okay, with all your countering and naysaying, what do you suggest she teach? don’t fight back??

this is the combat forum, full of people that trian martial arts, but i guarantee most of them have never had extended preparation with the legal response to their actions. again, Miss Parker already clarified this several times what she’s teaching in refernce to a legal response, which is good advice, IMO.

i don’t understand what you’re arguing. i think you’re just fishing for an argument…[/quote]

I’m not saying don’t fight back or give up easy. The way my teachers taught us is they had us fight hard and if someone got hurt we tried to continue and shake it off as we fought.

The point I am trying to make is there may be times where it is not a bad idea to respond to an outside influence saying stop. Fights are unique dynamic events where no two are exactly alike. You should be responsive to your environment. Not be programmed to shut out everything around you, mindlessly grind someone down and not stop.

There is a yin and yang to martial arts. Killer instinct can make you dangerous to an opponent, but too much can make you a danger to yourself. I know people who have ended up in jail being hard asses. I also know people who have been sued for tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages.

I know a guy who had to pay over a hundred thousand dollars to settle out of court for a fight that he didn’t start. The reason why he had to settle out of court is because he had a criminal record from fighting. If you work in law enforcement you should know that once you get even one assault charge that can have a huge affect on the rest of your life. ie try getting a CCW with an assault charge on your record. Or try getting a job with a felony assault on your record.