T Nation

US Prison Abuse Abroad


#1

So the Abu Ghraib human rights abuses weren't a one off then... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302380.html
Oh my God, the 'good guys' can do something wrong!


#2

Grow up. Real life isn't a Disney movie.


#3

Right! Because Jeffry says Iraq is disneyland!
Oh zap doesn't realize the long lines at al-queda recruiting centers 'round the world are caused in part our treatment of detainees, and as the latest reports says (again)--it ain't good--and some of it (alot) seems to be religion related--uh, also not good.

Guess, like Jeffry, some don't realize we're supposed to be fighting a war against terror.


#4

How can you be led to believe that such treatment is approved?


#5

Get a clue and start making sense.

Do you REALLY think the guys that blew up the trains in London did it because of Abu Ghraib or Gitmo?

You are really far gone. If you would drop the extreme partisanship and open your eyes you would understand that nasty things happen in war.

It is amazing the the US has the decency to actually try to limit it.


#6

I can't say I agree with the methods used on the prisoners (I don't disagree either). War is hell. Interrogation lead to information that may save American lives.
These prisoners come from a goverment (regime?) that routinely tortures it's people for thier beliefs, much less thier actions. These prisoners support the beheading of captured American civilians. Okay, maybe it is not right how they are handled, but much worse could be done to them. By the way, taking away the prisoner's milk and cookies won't encourage them to talk.


#7

I'll bite: what was the motivation for the guys that blew up the trains in London?

-Glee


#8

It would have been nice if the C.I.A. had considered this before helping them (the Taliban, in my example) overthrow a legitimate and progressive government two decades ago.

-Glee


#9

Wow we put panties on men's heads. OMG. We threatened them with dogs, wow. We got them naked, gross. How many of them have we sawed heads off of with a dull knife? How many have we questioned for a few minutes and then put a bullet through their head? WTF, people grow up. These guys would like nothing better than, you guessed it, hold hands and sing...yeah right. These men (and some women) would love nothing better than to brutally kill you, your family (especially those little kiddies), friends, etc.

Your real safe now but that may not last, especially if we go pansy on our interrogation techniques. Go enjoy your free life and leave your defense to the "men who stand ready to do VIOLENCE on behalf of your safety."


#10

Who was the legitimate govenrment of which you speak? The regime installed by the Soviets or the Taliban?


#11

You know first off there are no winners in any war.

Secondly, this is abuse? wtf do you think they do to american prisoners? Do you really think its the collage dorm crap that we are allegedly doing? I effing guarantee its of a much more serious nature.

Let me tell you something folks, these people are committed to making this as painfull for the US adn its allies as they possibly can. They are committed to this war and the viloence that ensues from it. They are so committed that there are waiting lines for fame of being a human bomb. There are waiting lines for entry into the terrioist training camps.

Our problem as a nation is that we have civilians running the war. Just the same as Korea and that quagmire Viet Nam.

The problems that we had there were not due to the ass in the grass, it was the fact that our nation didnt and still does not have the stomach for war. Until we do, this how it will continue. We will have this bullshit on the news and in our senate and congress about how we "abuse" these poor people. Its a f#$#ing joke but that is what our yuppee society clamors for. Its such a sad thing, we have the commitment inside of our military to do and do it right. But our public "leaders" waste these precious lives the same as they throw away our tax dollars.
Very depressing.


#12

A few real good, close friends that are Counter Intelligence Interrogators who were part of "Iraqi Freedom" have this to say: "Torture does not work"! The point of intelligence is to gain trust from the enemy. This cannot be done when the enemy is in fear of his life. This is straight from the field manual. However the line does sometimes become blurred on what is considered acceptable. I'm sure if you ask them what techniques are considered acceptable they'd laugh in your face as thay have mine.


#13

Yep you're right, better to attack them based on their RELIGION, things like spreading (fake) menstral blood on them really isn't going to make thousands of young muslims sign up for suicide bombings. Oh wait, it will, but it's not like we're fighting a war on terror...err, oh yeah we are. Well at least we don't have to worry about military out of uniform overseas ever being captured by the enemey, oh wait damn it we do!. Maybe this waterboarding and menstral blood thing isn't such a good idea?


#14

Uhhh...men in uniform (like powell) disagreed strongly with these policies when they were being signed off by bushies, who have been dead wrong about, well just about everything?


#15

Again civilians signed off on these stupid terrorist recruiting techniques. People in uniform were against it. And abusing people isn't a joke, it something most americans take pretty seriously, just not you.


#16

It's not amazing! It's american! And how is it "far gone" to realize these activities recruit terrorists! The bushies mindless stupidity and lack of foresigt isn't partisan, it should be commonsense, I mean the bushies "mistakes" were predictable no?

Was the london bombing because of...?
Maybe, but also maybe because Bush and co. leaked Mohammed Naeem Noor Khans idenity before the Democratic Convention while the British were using him as a mole, thus disrupting their investigation, which included plans on his laptop for a coordinated series of attacks on london's subway with names of uhh....British citizens of pakistani descent living near Luton, where last weeks terrorists began there day?

So you got anti muslim interogation techniques angering countless muslims, You've got a freshly created terrorist training ground, where terrorists 'round the world can hone their skills and strategies against the world's best army, a whitehouse that leaks classified info, and an admin that blows our allies investigations, including destroying an incredible opportunity with a mole inside al-queda! It's hard to not be partisan with this level of incompetence, no?


#17

How would you know? So far, in one billion posts, you've never held any positions that "most Americans", "many Americans", or even "a small minority of Americans" would agree with.


#18

This Pew survey is pretty heartening, http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248

It states that on the whole support for Bin Laden and terrorism in general is dropping throughout the Muslim world. It was taken before the London bombings by the way. It also points that large majorities in many Muslim countries want democratic government. Hopefully these trends continue...


#19

Approved U.S. interrogation techniques do not equal torture, under any legal definition applicable to U.S. actions. And thus they aren't illegal, under those same definitions. Nor, in my mind, are they immoral or otherwise wrongly applied in general.

They aren't supposed to be making those prisoners feel warm and snuggly. There is no requirement that they be kept comfortable, and not be subject to things that make them uncomfortable, whether they be religiously uncomfortable, culturally uncomfortable, psychologically uncomfortable, physically uncomfortable, or some combination thereof.

To quote from the article:

[i]"Interrogators at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, forced a stubborn detainee to wear women's underwear on his head, confronted him with snarling military working dogs and attached a leash to his chains, according to a newly released military investigation that shows the tactics were employed there months before military police used them on detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

The techniques, approved by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld for use in interrogating Mohamed Qahtani -- the alleged "20th hijacker" in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks -- were used at Guantanamo Bay in late 2002 as part of a special interrogation plan aimed at breaking down the silent detainee.

Military investigators who briefed the Senate Armed Services Committee yesterday on the three-month probe, called the tactics "creative" and "aggressive" but said they did not cross the line into torture."[/i]

The article goes on to try to make an argument that Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo must be causally related, irrespective of the fact that no causal relationship is shown.

The problem is that in the case of the Abu Ghraib abuses, techniques that were related to approved techniques for specific interrogations under specific circumstances were misapplied for sh*ts and giggles by some low-level night-watch teams who were not being properly supervised. In Abu Ghraib, the abusers were misapplying interrogation techniques against random prisoners for no reason other that to entertain themselves.

In addition, the WaPo story willfully blurs facts by using a catch-all phrase "sexual humiliation" to try to lump the sexual assaults that occurred at Abu Ghraib with the tactics of Guantanamo, which included nudity and other non-assault techniques.

Hooding, nudity, loud music, etc., are all techniques previously applied by other countries in similar situations, such as by the British against the IRA in the 70s, and they are both effective and legal.


#20

Regardless of what is or isn't "legal", the US is the sole world superpower today. If it even gives a shit how the rest of the world views it, it may want to consider holding itself to a higher standard.

If it does not, then people are going to question whether or not there is hypocrisy in invading a country to liberate people when the tactics used by the US appear to be over line also.

Yes, I do understand that the tactics are not the same and not as bad. However, you have to understand that being "legal" does not make a thing good. It does not make it something that the enemy can't use as a rallying cry to incite recruits.

It seems to me that some of you folks don't care if more recruits are encouraged by US actions. It's as if you want war, and think that by creating a larger conflict you will somehow be able to kill all those that are dangerous to US interests.

How myopic. Surely you realize that for every person who is willing to strap on a gun or a bomb, there are many more who would rather speak ill of the states, spread lies and recruit and train others to strap on guns and bombs.

Do you want to end the problem of terrorism in the world or do you want to fight a war on terror? They are not necessarily the same thing. Yes, you can even work towards both at the same time.

And no, for the truly ignorant, I am not talking about appeasement or singing Kumba-Ya or any other generally derogatory attack slanted against those that take a slightly wider view towards finding a solution than killing people.