T Nation

US/Mexico Border: The Point?


U.S. Senate poised to grant U.S. citizen rights to 10 million illegal immigrants today:


Yay for corporate America!! No fines or future punishment for us! Yay for breaking the law and laughing at it! Hooray!! Hell boys, let's just put a big banner across the Rio Grande that say's "COME RIGHT ON IN! GET IN LINE FOR A PAYCHECK AND SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS!"

This is totally f*cked.


I don't think it is just evil big business at fault here. The pro-illegal alien crowd isn;t griping a bit about this, and I hardly think they can be considered Big Business.

It's not 10 million new citizens. It's 10 million new voters.


Agreed. This is complete horseshit.


i think its time we just annex mexico.

We might actually win a world cup then...


its actually more than that.....under the hegel martinez plan, it is estimated that in the next 20 years we will have 100 million more people (our current pop is around 300 mil)than we would have had without the amnesty. Sounds like a brilliant plan to me.


Interesting points from Ed Meese in an article in the NYT today -- let's just hope the Senate bill is the one that is most changed when it comes time to merge the two:


[i]?the legislation stipulated several conditions: immigrants had to pay application fees, learn to speak English, understand American civics, pass a medical exam and register for military selective service. Those with convictions for a felony or three misdemeanors were ineligible. Sound familiar? These are pretty much the same provisions included in the new Senate proposal and cited by its supporters as proof that they have eschewed amnesty in favor of earned citizenship.

The difference is that President Reagan called this what it was: amnesty. Indeed, look up the term "amnesty" in Black's Law Dictionary, and you'll find it says, "the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act provided amnesty for undocumented aliens already in the country."

Like the amnesty bill of 1986, the current Senate proposal would place those who have resided illegally in the United States on a path to citizenship, provided they meet a similar set of conditions and pay a fine and back taxes. The illegal immigrant does not go to the back of the line but gets immediate legalized status, while law-abiding applicants wait in their home countries for years to even get here. And that's the line that counts. In the end, slight differences in process do not change the overriding fact that the 1986 law and today's bill are both amnesties?[/i]


Another very bad thing from the Senate version -- the extension of the Davis-Bacon Act to guest workers:


And more of its proposed bureaucracy here:



. If you shorten the supply of labor the demand increases and so do wages


I choked on my MRP when I read this line. Apperantly the 'poor, tired, huddled masses yearning to breath free' applies even if you pop >.08, twice.

BB, I'm not up on my case law or this bill to any appreciable degree, but one has to have committed a crime in order to be granted amnesty, so could 'two strikes' in addition to illegal immigration mean inelligibility? Further are we to overlook the misdemeanors (fraud) and felonies (document forgery) that have taken place in the periphery of the act of immigration or could some/most of these people get amnesty, be found guilty of these peripheral crimes, and be stripped of their amnesty by judge/jury? Not that trial of all aliens is actionable, but one 'activist judge' is all it takes to start the ball rolling...


I don't disagree with that. But you seem to blame evil big business for supporting this bill, when you can just as easily blame the pro illegal alien crowd.

My point is that all the politicians see is an untapped market of potential voters. They could care less about the impact it will have on the economy, the welfare system, or anything else. They just see voters.


In the current version of the Senate bill, to my understanding, they have explicitly exempted crimes related to being here illegally (misdemeanors) or falsifying social security or other ID docs (felonies) from the allowed misdemeanors and felony.

In other words, they get a free pass on those, and a free pass on more misdemeanors and a felony.


Here's some common sense.

The way I figure it, this amnesty thing is just step one to the peaceful conquering of Mexico. Think twenty years ahead. We make it a habit of welcoming the citizens of Mexico and treating them like Americans, they will come to accept our rules and our way of life. There is no reason that Mexico shouldn't be state #51.

There is money to be made in this, therefore it is only a matter of time. My advice to you guys: learn to speak a little Spanish. It's good for you to widen your horizons a little bit. Many many people of the world know more than one language, and this is a good thing.

Xenophobia gets you nothing.


I do not think I could disagree more with your post. Did you watch the "protests" two weeks ago? Were they waiving any American flags at those protests to show how much they wanted to be Americans? I did not see a single one in that sea of red green and white. These people do not want to become Americans. They just want our money and our social services and we're just giving it to them because it's good for businesses. Hell, they don't even want to learn our language.

And yes, there is money to be made. But only if you're a business. If you're a worker, you can look forward to heavy wage pressures.

Just found this:


Says most of what I want to say.



You're missing the point, I think. IF we are soon to have a glut of cheap unskilled labor, and you want to get something out of it, think outside the box. This might soon be a good time to start a business which takes advantage of the changing business climate. Bitching isn't going to help you. Being the boss is how you get ahead in this life anyway.

You say they just want to come to America to use us, right? Well, if they live here and vote here, that makes them Americans whether they want to admit it or not. They can wave 1000 Mexican flags, have a giant burrito float in the Saint Paddy's Day Parade, and name their kids Taco, Peso, and Bandito... they are still Americans.

Have a little faith in OUR culture, man. You think we are such pussies that we are just going to fade away because we annex Mexico? I laugh at that. Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

I have this idea that you guys are thinking this is disaster because you see them all as a drain on us. Change gears... maybe this is the final excuse we've been waiting for to get REAL welfare reform pushed through. If we can't afford to keep things the way they are, then it will have to change, right? Example:

Let's say Social Security becomes insolvent in the near future. Do we

a) Trash the entire economy, and fuck everything up?

b) Tell the folks supposedly "entitled" to social security that they are shit out of luck?

I hope your answer is b.

Think ahead, and you can win from this. This issue is opportunity knocking.


And just to clarify, I'm not saying that if this SS insolvency comes to pass that we should toss old people out on the street, I'm just saying that we all should be aware that Social Security was never intended to be a retirement plan. Plan accordingly while you have the time and the ability to be more than a senior citizen with a very small fixed income.

I pay a shitload of SS taxes every year. I expect none of it back. NONE.

Back on topic, Welfare entitlement, which is the bitching point I'm hearing wrt our new American citizens, was never intended to be a permanent source of income for anybody. Maybe it's time we can change it back from the monstrosity it is now. Maybe we can stop rewarding people for having ten kids they can't afford? Would that be a good start?


My favorite quote is from Albert Einstein:

"The world is not dangerous because of those who do harm but because of those who look at it without doing anything."

Americans are in this mess because of apathetic attitudes like your's. There is a huge long term costs for the short term profits we'll reap from illegals. What do I do? Start up a construction company and hire half a dozen illegals? Skip out on all the taxes and retire on the west coast? Hello! Some of us still have redeemable souls.

I'll call them Americans when they start shoveling dirt on me. Just because our corrupt systems embraces them so, I do not think for one minute that the majority of America shares your opinion.

We've been annexing Mexico slowly for the last thirty some years. We've been sending our jobs overseas for about twenty. Are things getting better for today's young Americans? Survey says:


This is unfortunately what the "masterminds" behind our current administration believe. While their political theory is genius; they are as equally incompetent in economic theory as they are in their tactical ones. However, to their credit I can quote from HL Mencken:

"Nobody ever got poor betting on the stupidity of the American public."

For every dollar you save by starving single white mothers and their child(ren) (who make up the majority of welfare recipients - Suprise suprise) you could make a thousand by stopping corporate welfare. But I digress.


Well I agree there. But not everybody is competent enough to plan for and manage their retirement investments. Hell, they can't even sign up for Medicare D on time. If you go down that road, I think it's even less pretty than what we have now. Basically grandma and grandpa die rot away or hold up a seven eleven if they couldn't manage their retirement fund well and the kids don't have money to spare.

Ditto, but maybe this is part of the problem. You know when Southwest Airlines went bankrupt, they negotiated with the union more than a dozen times over two and half years. They had them all planned out before the union even came to the table. Each negotiation was a just a psychological adjustment to smooth out the next one. By the end of them all they got the workers to take 25%-45% pay cuts and got them to give up a third of their pensions. Maybe the reason we won't get social security benefits is because we're all expecting it and ok with it. They take you over a barrel as much as you're willing to take.

The system NEEDS those ten kids. Just like it NEEDS those 66 million illegals over the next twenty years. It's a ponzi scheme that relies on cheap labor. Take the cheap labor away and the record profits disappear and the party's over. The participants left standing get the massive hangover. And the unfortunate thing about ponzi schemes is they're impossible to maintain. Eventually the pyramid collapses when if becomes impossible or too difficult (costly) to find another base.


Providing a way for folks to get legal jobs is not being apathetic, it's being proactive. This is capitalism, man! It won't be illegal if they are "citizenized". God forbid, you might just get the chance to withhold some tax on our new citizens. Be a part of the solution. No more paying under the table = good.

You're still missing it. These folks won't be "illegals". They will be "legals".

So your argument is that this amnesty thing represents the end of the world for us? It's not an opportunity to adapt to changes, it's the death knell of our society? Everything is going to be crappy from now on?

Do you know what your links tell me? Don't be a ditchdigger. There's not a future filled with Ferraris and big-titted blondes in it. I don't know about you, but ever since I graduated from college, life has been pretty sweet career-wise. Everywhere I look, I see more and more opportunity awaiting me in the future. I am excited at what the next ten years will bring.

The choice is yours to adapt. That's what animals are supposed to do.

I stand corrected. So basically, we don't even need to worry about the welfare angle of this immigrant issue to begin with:


So why are you whining again? :slight_smile:


We have to trust people to be smart enough to manage their own money, or this will never work. I don't know about you, but the idea of the government effectively taxing me into reliance upon it to plan my future scares the shit out of me. Fuck that, son! There is a level of responsibility that goes hand in hand with liberty, and maybe that's something that's been lost on some folks along the way. The solution is education, not more taxes and a nanny government.

Agreed. I've written off SS as I have been told from as far back as I've cared about this issue that I am shit outta luck. I pay in, but that doesn't mean it pays me back. And that's fine. I WANT the responsibility to take care of my own affairs, dammit! And everybody else should, too! Sure, I'm getting screwed over, but that's the price of being an American in my age group. I can either bitch about it or do something about it.

This is where I beg to differ. Good business practice creates value by its own virtue. An honest business is a good thing for any community. My point was to be that honest business, and you will succeed. I agree that a business built on falsehood and scams will eventually fail, but you must realize that most businesses aren't scams.

Provide a good value, and you will be useful. Remain useful, and you will succeed. Again, get these folks "citizenized", and put them to work. Surf this thing... don't fight it.

Half of seeing opportunity is seeing the bright side of things. :slight_smile:


Well, we should probably break it up into a few states for electoral reasons, but it's not a bad plan. (While we're at it, we can divide CA into 3 states - NorCal, SoCal, which would hug the coast like Chile but be divided around Monterey, and Central Cal, to give the farmers their own state).