US Marine vs. BJJ Female

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I’ve RNCed a guy “on the street” as an LEO. I was wearing jump boots, he wasn’t grabbing shit.

I had a probie along with me for seasoning, and he needed it. We stopped a drug backpacker near the fence, probie moved in to put the cuffs on and caught a spinning elbow to the head as the guy popped up. Druggie jumped on top of him, I figured an RNC was better for all involved than shooting towards a friendly, letting the druggie get the probie’s pistol, or batoning him in the back of the head. No tap, just figure 4, night night, hold for an extra 30 seconds to make sure he was really out.

Moral: don’t try to G+P one guy when his friend is nearby. Had I not been there to arrest him, he’d have gotten stomped and tossed onto the Mexican side of the fence. As it was he woke up zip tied with a shotgun pointed at him.[/quote]

So you,re a cop? seems like you did well,especially with plenty of time to disprove my point,regardless,you had a baton and didnt use it? decided to be nice guy and engage thr eneny physically, for what reason? i,k ginna look at your profile before i say more. [/quote]

Confusion,

devildog_jim’s credentials absolutely put him in the “should be listened to” category.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Ok. Thanks

22

[quote]magick wrote:
Show me. While this is obviously unrepresentative, every BJJ matches I’ve seen and experienced had people so bloody eager to go onto the ground where they can actually show what they’ve learned that they didn’t seem to care at all how they got onto the ground, as long as they were in the dominant position.

That is not utilizing distance and control.[/quote]
Because they were…wait for it…BJJ matches. No combat sport could stand up to the “what if it were a real fight” equation. Not even mma.

23

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

First, unless you spend the majority of your time lounging on the beach or by a pool, most people generally wear shoes, which makes toe locks much harder to apply. Second, if properly applied you’ve got 3-4 seconds until you are out cold with a RNC. Unless the person fighting you is a complete fool or wuss, or you are very, very good at toe locks and very strong and fast, you aren’t defending a RNC with a toe lock with any kind of high probability.

[/quote]

Although your response was to, IMO a troll, it was well thought out, like most of yours are, and has some value. I would like to add that if someone is in a position to apply the RNC there is a reason why he is there. So whenever someone says they would get out of this position or that submission by doing whatever, I ask them to go back a little further and think about why they are in that situation in the first place. In the case of an RNC, the guy didn’t magically appear on your back. Even though the toe lock that was mentioned was trolling some people are of the opinion that pain compliance type moves are 100% effective. You will hear someone say, “I would just bite the person,” for example. If I were in a fight for my life and was on the other guy’s back and was going for an RNC he can try and break my toe. He can even break it. I’ll take it knowing that I’m going to be dealing with an unconscious scumbag in a few seconds. It’s just a toe, I’ve broken them before, and when you add in adrenalin and anger and even fear who knows if I would even feel it at the time. People have continued fighting after getting stabbed or even shot.

I’m not saying that “dirty” moves are not effective at all but there is, for lack of a better a word, an art to using them just like any other technique. When Bruce Lee bit his way out of an armlock that was a movie. It was fiction. The reality is that if he were in that position for real his biting would probably have caused the other guy to react by cranking the hell out of it and breaking his arm. Royce was bitten on the ear while applying a choke to Gordeau (I think) and he only held the choke for a few seconds longer after he started tapping. Zulu tried to gouge Rickson’s eyes when Rickson was on his back applying the RNC. He ended up tapping out.

24

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

First, unless you spend the majority of your time lounging on the beach or by a pool, most people generally wear shoes, which makes toe locks much harder to apply. Second, if properly applied you’ve got 3-4 seconds until you are out cold with a RNC. Unless the person fighting you is a complete fool or wuss, or you are very, very good at toe locks and very strong and fast, you aren’t defending a RNC with a toe lock with any kind of high probability.

[/quote]

Although your response was to, IMO a troll, it was well thought out, like most of yours are, and has some value. I would like to add that if someone is in a position to apply the RNC there is a reason why he is there. So whenever someone says they would get out of this position or that submission by doing whatever, I ask them to go back a little further and think about why they are in that situation in the first place. In the case of an RNC, the guy didn’t magically appear on your back. Even though the toe lock that was mentioned was trolling some people are of the opinion that pain compliance type moves are 100% effective. You will hear someone say, “I would just bite the person,” for example. If I were in a fight for my life and was on the other guy’s back and was going for an RNC he can try and break my toe. He can even break it. I’ll take it knowing that I’m going to be dealing with an unconscious scumbag in a few seconds. It’s just a toe, I’ve broken them before, and when you add in adrenalin and anger and even fear who knows if I would even feel it at the time. People have continued fighting after getting stabbed or even shot.

I’m not saying that “dirty” moves are not effective at all but there is, for lack of a better a word, an art to using them just like any other technique. When Bruce Lee bit his way out of an armlock that was a movie. It was fiction. The reality is that if he were in that position for real his biting would probably have caused the other guy to react by cranking the hell out of it and breaking his arm. Royce was bitten on the ear while applying a choke to Gordeau (I think) and he only held the choke for a few seconds longer after he started tapping. Zulu tried to gouge Rickson’s eyes when Rickson was on his back applying the RNC. He ended up tapping out. [/quote]

Yes, absolutely. And your point about pain compliance moves not being 100% was exactly what I was getting at with my “unless your opponent is a fool or wuss”. When we factor in adrenaline, even a wuss who understands what is happening (my toe gets broken in exchange for you going unconscious is a trade that I will take every time in a real life and death fight) will probably not let go of the RNC and you are going to sleep.

There is a big difference between the reactions that people will exhibit in training or even competitions and what they might exhibit if their life is one the line. For instance if you bar choke/windpipe choke someone in training you’re likely to get a very quick tap/submission. If you do it in a real fight though, not only are you not going to get a quick submission (surrender/give up) response, what are are much more likely to get is the full extent of resistance, ferocity, and fight that your opponent is capable of giving you. This difference is the result of the opponent knowing that a quick tap will relieve the pressure and save them in training vs knowing that if they do not fight with every last ounce of intensity and urgency they have in them there is a good chance they may wind up dead in a real fight.

The same is true for things like small digit manipulation. In training people may tap to a toe lock defense to a RNC as it’s just training and they’d rather tap and continue to keep training at full capacity than get their toe broken and choke you unconscious. And that choice makes perfect sense in that context. But if their life or the life of a loved one is one the line, they are going to sacrifice their toe for the victory. The only techniques/tactics that are 100% guaranteed to end things under real conditions are those which shut down the CNS, or cripple the opponent badly enough to guarantee escape.

As Zecarlo said, there is an art to “dirty” fighting tactics and you have to not only train such tactics to be able to pull them off, but you also need to realize when they are actual viable options and what effects they will actually have under real fight conditions. Biting can be an excellent tactic and very effective given the correct circumstances and application, but it’s not going to be a magical key that will get you out of all submissions; eye attacks are the same (though admittedly more likely to do so if applied correctly).

If you train these tactics realistically and learn how to blend them with your other skill sets (which absolutely should include grappling skills), then they can be very effective. Sadly most who claim that they would use them do not do so, and so likely could not pull them off against a skilled grappler.

25

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
Show me. While this is obviously unrepresentative, every BJJ matches I’ve seen and experienced had people so bloody eager to go onto the ground where they can actually show what they’ve learned that they didn’t seem to care at all how they got onto the ground, as long as they were in the dominant position.

That is not utilizing distance and control.[/quote]
Because they were…wait for it…BJJ matches. No combat sport could stand up to the “what if it were a real fight” equation. Not even mma. [/quote]

He said that BJJ teaches distance and control while standing.

I said I’ve never seen distance and control emphasized while standing in BJJ. If they did, the it would probably become judo, which isn’t the point of BJJ.

26

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
Show me. While this is obviously unrepresentative, every BJJ matches I’ve seen and experienced had people so bloody eager to go onto the ground where they can actually show what they’ve learned that they didn’t seem to care at all how they got onto the ground, as long as they were in the dominant position.

That is not utilizing distance and control.[/quote]
Because they were…wait for it…BJJ matches. No combat sport could stand up to the “what if it were a real fight” equation. Not even mma. [/quote]

He said that BJJ teaches distance and control while standing.

I said I’ve never seen distance and control emphasized while standing in BJJ. If they did, the it would probably become judo, which isn’t the point of BJJ.[/quote]

Im really tired of stating that BJJ is a slightly tweaked version of Japanese Jiu jitsu which encompasses judo. Just because everyone Guard Flops and slimes all over each other because they want to does not mean that you don’t learn standing and distancing techniques unless you go to some weird school that doesn’t teach that. If that is the case I hope to see you at NAGA or the cage or any fight for that matter.

27

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
Show me. While this is obviously unrepresentative, every BJJ matches I’ve seen and experienced had people so bloody eager to go onto the ground where they can actually show what they’ve learned that they didn’t seem to care at all how they got onto the ground, as long as they were in the dominant position.

That is not utilizing distance and control.[/quote]
Because they were…wait for it…BJJ matches. No combat sport could stand up to the “what if it were a real fight” equation. Not even mma. [/quote]

He said that BJJ teaches distance and control while standing.

I said I’ve never seen distance and control emphasized while standing in BJJ. If they did, the it would probably become judo, which isn’t the point of BJJ.[/quote]

It depends on what you define as control of distance. If you watch Royce or Rickson fight in their earlier fights you’ll see them use an extended guard and front leg push kicks to their opponent’s front knee to maintain distance until they want to close the distance (which is in itself a method of controlling distance). This may not be as emphasized in BJJ schools focused purely on competition though.

28

Somehow my edit to that post saying “obviously my experience isn’t representative, and so I asked him to give me examples” didn’t get in =(

29

[quote]confusion wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I’ve RNCed a guy “on the street” as an LEO. I was wearing jump boots, he wasn’t grabbing shit.

I had a probie along with me for seasoning, and he needed it. We stopped a drug backpacker near the fence, probie moved in to put the cuffs on and caught a spinning elbow to the head as the guy popped up. Druggie jumped on top of him, I figured an RNC was better for all involved than shooting towards a friendly, letting the druggie get the probie’s pistol, or batoning him in the back of the head. No tap, just figure 4, night night, hold for an extra 30 seconds to make sure he was really out.

Moral: don’t try to G+P one guy when his friend is nearby. Had I not been there to arrest him, he’d have gotten stomped and tossed onto the Mexican side of the fence. As it was he woke up zip tied with a shotgun pointed at him.[/quote]

So you,re a cop? seems like you did well,especially with plenty of time to disprove my point,regardless,you had a baton and didnt use it? decided to be nice guy and engage thr eneny physically, for what reason? i,k ginna look at your profile before i say more. [/quote]

Fed, on the AZ border. And I got into enough hand to hand situations to have plenty to choose from for examples.

Yes, I had a baton. Could have probably used it without repercussions too. But just because I can legally cause someone a fractured skull, along with potential brain damage and death, doesn’t mean I want to. That leads to things like administrative suspensions, investigations, and civil rights charges that can really slow down your career. A proper RNC, OTOH, is a couple of pages of incident report for the assault on a federal agent charge the bozo is now facing. Doesn’t even take the rest of the shift. For me, there, it was the right call. Someone that wasn’t as sure of it, or as able to physically dominate the bad guy if it didn’t work, probably would have been better off swinging for the fences. All situational, but there’s a time and place where it absolutely works as advertised.

30

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
Show me. While this is obviously unrepresentative, every BJJ matches I’ve seen and experienced had people so bloody eager to go onto the ground where they can actually show what they’ve learned that they didn’t seem to care at all how they got onto the ground, as long as they were in the dominant position.

That is not utilizing distance and control.[/quote]
Because they were…wait for it…BJJ matches. No combat sport could stand up to the “what if it were a real fight” equation. Not even mma. [/quote]

He said that BJJ teaches distance and control while standing.

I said I’ve never seen distance and control emphasized while standing in BJJ. If they did, the it would probably become judo, which isn’t the point of BJJ.[/quote]
Given the number of BJJ black belts in/from Brazil who are also black belts in Judo I don’t see your point. Helio sent his kids to train Judo with Mehdi. Oswaldo Alves trained at the Kodokan.

31

Jim- Your a pro, nuff said . Thank you for your service and comments, sounds like it was the time and place, good job mentoring. You kept him safe so he could continue to learn.
Ranzo- nice comment, right on point.

As to a smaller and weaker opponent. This is why we have weight classes, also why since I don’t compete anymore I don’t care what my walking around weight is. The marine would have wiped the floor with this gal if that was the desired outcome, maybe he just wanted to buy her a drink later.

32

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I’ve RNCed a guy “on the street” as an LEO. I was wearing jump boots, he wasn’t grabbing shit.

I had a probie along with me for seasoning, and he needed it. We stopped a drug backpacker near the fence, probie moved in to put the cuffs on and caught a spinning elbow to the head as the guy popped up. Druggie jumped on top of him, I figured an RNC was better for all involved than shooting towards a friendly, letting the druggie get the probie’s pistol, or batoning him in the back of the head. No tap, just figure 4, night night, hold for an extra 30 seconds to make sure he was really out.

Moral: don’t try to G+P one guy when his friend is nearby. Had I not been there to arrest him, he’d have gotten stomped and tossed onto the Mexican side of the fence. As it was he woke up zip tied with a shotgun pointed at him.[/quote]

So you,re a cop? seems like you did well,especially with plenty of time to disprove my point,regardless,you had a baton and didnt use it? decided to be nice guy and engage thr eneny physically, for what reason? i,k ginna look at your profile before i say more. [/quote]

Fed, on the AZ border. And I got into enough hand to hand situations to have plenty to choose from for examples.

Yes, I had a baton. Could have probably used it without repercussions too. But just because I can legally cause someone a fractured skull, along with potential brain damage and death, doesn’t mean I want to. That leads to things like administrative suspensions, investigations, and civil rights charges that can really slow down your career. A proper RNC, OTOH, is a couple of pages of incident report for the assault on a federal agent charge the bozo is now facing. Doesn’t even take the rest of the shift. For me, there, it was the right call. Someone that wasn’t as sure of it, or as able to physically dominate the bad guy if it didn’t work, probably would have been better off swinging for the fences. All situational, but there’s a time and place where it absolutely works as advertised.
[/quote]

Post-conflict repercussions are extremely important to consider and not just the legal ones (which you did a good job of addressing).

Unless you are sociopathic, you will likely suffer some sort of PTSD if you are forced to take another person’s life. The chances go up even further if you taking their life was not the clear, only resort that you had. So in Jim’s case, had he decided to club the perp with his baton and the blow had resulted in a fatality, he very likely may have wound up haunted by that decision for the rest of his life (always questioning whether he would have been better off using a less lethal tactic like a RNC). Now obviously in some cases you may have to do what you need to do to survive, and you need to develop very clear “lines in the sand” or “moral imperatives” prior to going into such situations so that you at least have a really strong reasoning in your heart/mind should you be forced to use such measures, but the truth is that even then you may not escape these post-conflict repercussions. This is something that doesn’t get brought up much, but is a very real thing among those who have seen/engaged in real life and death combat.

33

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I’ve RNCed a guy “on the street” as an LEO. I was wearing jump boots, he wasn’t grabbing shit.

I had a probie along with me for seasoning, and he needed it. We stopped a drug backpacker near the fence, probie moved in to put the cuffs on and caught a spinning elbow to the head as the guy popped up. Druggie jumped on top of him, I figured an RNC was better for all involved than shooting towards a friendly, letting the druggie get the probie’s pistol, or batoning him in the back of the head. No tap, just figure 4, night night, hold for an extra 30 seconds to make sure he was really out.

Moral: don’t try to G+P one guy when his friend is nearby. Had I not been there to arrest him, he’d have gotten stomped and tossed onto the Mexican side of the fence. As it was he woke up zip tied with a shotgun pointed at him.[/quote]

So you,re a cop? seems like you did well,especially with plenty of time to disprove my point,regardless,you had a baton and didnt use it? decided to be nice guy and engage thr eneny physically, for what reason? i,k ginna look at your profile before i say more. [/quote]

Fed, on the AZ border. And I got into enough hand to hand situations to have plenty to choose from for examples.

Yes, I had a baton. Could have probably used it without repercussions too. But just because I can legally cause someone a fractured skull, along with potential brain damage and death, doesn’t mean I want to. That leads to things like administrative suspensions, investigations, and civil rights charges that can really slow down your career. A proper RNC, OTOH, is a couple of pages of incident report for the assault on a federal agent charge the bozo is now facing. Doesn’t even take the rest of the shift. For me, there, it was the right call. Someone that wasn’t as sure of it, or as able to physically dominate the bad guy if it didn’t work, probably would have been better off swinging for the fences. All situational, but there’s a time and place where it absolutely works as advertised.
[/quote]

Post-conflict repercussions are extremely important to consider and not just the legal ones (which you did a good job of addressing).

Unless you are sociopathic, you will likely suffer some sort of PTSD if you are forced to take another person’s life. The chances go up even further if you taking their life was not the clear, only resort that you had. So in Jim’s case, had he decided to club the perp with his baton and the blow had resulted in a fatality, he very likely may have wound up haunted by that decision for the rest of his life (always questioning whether he would have been better off using a less lethal tactic like a RNC). Now obviously in some cases you may have to do what you need to do to survive, and you need to develop very clear “lines in the sand” or “moral imperatives” prior to going into such situations so that you at least have a really strong reasoning in your heart/mind should you be forced to use such measures, but the truth is that even then you may not escape these post-conflict repercussions. This is something that doesn’t get brought up much, but is a very real thing among those who have seen/engaged in real life and death combat.[/quote]

Excellent posts and anyone with practical experience in an on duty death or serious injury to a perp, knows the administrative/legal aftermath is hurricane of stress. The usual outcome falls into three areas: injured, dead, or sued.

34

As a bjj guy I never understand the "dirty move"argument, which goes… What if I break your toe or bite you? I would argue… what if the grappler decideds to bite you?

35

[quote]tdonk wrote:
As a bjj guy I never understand the "dirty move"argument, which goes… What if I break your toe or bite you? I would argue… what if the grappler decideds to bite you?
[/quote]

The argument is valid in that most BJJ schools (in the US anyhow) focus almost exclusively on sport training (be that pure submission grappling or MMA). As a result their neuromuscular systems are not trained to deal with things like bites, eye gouges, body handles, weapons, or multiples. Nor are their body’s hard wired to utilize or recognize opportunities for such tactics themselves. And if they did find themselves instinctively using such tactics when in a real life and death scenario, then shouldn’t that be a great incentive to them to begin incorporating such tactics into their training?

Under adrenaline stress the body will do what it has been trained to do through repetition. There is a saying that “you do not rise to the occasion under adrenaline stress, you fall to the level of your training.”

That said, the original GJJ/BJJ did address how to deal with (and even use to an extent) such tactics and was much more geared towards actual real world combat. So I am by no means suggesting that a GJJ/BJJ black belt couldn’t very quickly learn to incorporate such tactics and be very dangerous with them.

36

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
As Zecarlo said, there is an art to “dirty” fighting tactics and you have to not only train such tactics to be able to pull them off, but you also need to realize when they are actual viable options and what effects they will actually have under real fight conditions. Biting can be an excellent tactic and very effective given the correct circumstances and application, but it’s not going to be a magical key that will get you out of all submissions; eye attacks are the same (though admittedly more likely to do so if applied correctly).
[/quote]
This is something people should understand asap.
If you don’t train it, you won’t be able to pull it off easily - you might not even think of it.

A boxer jabs hundreds of times during a single training session.
And there are guys with beautiful shadow boxing, polished through years of practise, whose jabs are shite when actually sparring.

The first time I saw real grappling was 20 years ago in a Tae Kwon Do club.
My training partner was hanging out with me after class in the club’s basement. We had some shitty exercise-machines there.
So this new guy drops by and my friend, who’s been cross training Wing Chun gets all fired up when the supposed newbie questions the usefulness of some stance he was showing me.
It escalates quickly as my friend is determined to showcase his gongfu.
“Really, you think you could pull this off when I’m like this!?”
They fight and the newcomer does exactly what he was critisizing.
Takedown.
Top control.
Surfing.
Eats a few slaps, scratches and t-shirt rippings.
He finally has his back, but refrains from choking my friend the fuck out with a RNC.
And he’s laughing and being friendly the whole time.
My friend is furious and I kinda hold him back. While the other guy shrugs it off (“I thought we were having fun, let’s be cool about it”) and proceeds to work the butterfly machine, he proclaims loudly:
“it’s nothing, in a real fight I just would’ve done the finger poke”

It was surreal - two guys fought and I learned a lesson.

37

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
I’ve RNCed a guy “on the street” as an LEO. I was wearing jump boots, he wasn’t grabbing shit.

I had a probie along with me for seasoning, and he needed it. We stopped a drug backpacker near the fence, probie moved in to put the cuffs on and caught a spinning elbow to the head as the guy popped up. Druggie jumped on top of him, I figured an RNC was better for all involved than shooting towards a friendly, letting the druggie get the probie’s pistol, or batoning him in the back of the head. No tap, just figure 4, night night, hold for an extra 30 seconds to make sure he was really out.

Moral: don’t try to G+P one guy when his friend is nearby. Had I not been there to arrest him, he’d have gotten stomped and tossed onto the Mexican side of the fence. As it was he woke up zip tied with a shotgun pointed at him.[/quote]

That’s one hell of a story

38

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Freakin tan belt ninjas giving MCMAP a bad name. Boot mofo probably had between 30 and 120 hours total training time. Imagine sending your white belts out to a challenge match. That’s basically what happened.

Yes, the USMC trains significant ground fighting as you progress, but it’s not all downloaded into yout brain at boot camp.
[/quote]

Lol, thank you…Fucking tan belt, laughing my ass off!

39

any of you who think BJJ is ineffective when involving bites and shit are totally clueless to how easily you would get totally demolished by someone with advanced skill. Its totally laughable.

40

[quote]confusion wrote:

[quote]Wanabsedated wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
You do realize that if that was a genuine fight, the marine would have smashed the girl in the head the moment he took her down, right? Roughly around the 18-20 second mark.

Or if this was on concrete floor, him throwing the girl at :15 would have done quite a bit of damage to her leg that touched the ground first.

Not to mention… no one is really taking that fight seriously. You can tell based off the reaction and general attitude of the crowd.

I don’t think anyone disputes the fact that BJJ training is incredibly effective against-

A) A single opponent.
B) Someone who is not as skilled as you are at BJJ.

But this video doesn’t actually prove anything at all.[/quote]

You dont know what youre talking about. ANY decent Bjj guy will know how to use distance and control without even touching the ground once. Do you really think swinging at someone’s face looking for a KO is more effective than a choke?[/quote]

Is this the only option? Take out the knee, fights over,period.
[/quote]

yeah and then you’re on your ass for unskillfully trying to kick someones knee…

the knee is a lot tougher than you think bud… and then even a acl tear or something else would just get you choked out harder and possibly killed because of how pissed you made the guy.

ANY of you hardasses should visit a legit school (alliance, gracie barra, checkmat or a good sambo school like the one in NYC) and see how your opinions will change in a matter of seconds.

This isnt even an uncommen thing… i’ve seen lesser skilled very athletic guys get tapped by a skilled legit female purple belt nearly every week now for a year here. I am actually in Brazil right now.

It’s just another thing where egotistical people dunno wtf they are even talking about.