T Nation

US Government Over-Reach And E-Cigs

As the title implies, whether you partake in electronic cigarettes or not, what are your thoughts on the subject?

Government overreach? Everyone know government exists to protect us from ourselves. Sometimes it sees that people are too native, and puts them in a place. Sometimes it sees that people are too Jewish, and puts them in a chamber. Sometimes it sees that people are too stupid not to do something that hurts them, and it has to take their money or put them in jail.

It’s just as stupid as smoking regular cigarettes and as rude. I don’t want to smell that shit.

Well, we do need protection from other people.

Can’t argue with that.

The sarcasm is palpable lol.

I know the overreach is basically a joke at this point, but this seems low on the need for government intervention, even by US Gov standards.

Regarding the smell, I worked at the start up vape company in SE North Carolina for a few years before I went and got a “real job” and you dont need to tell me about the pretentious inconsiderate punks that run around blowing clouds in peoples face. Its fucking rude.

However the first part I totally disagree with. The argument always stands “pure air is better than anything else on your lungs” which I’ll never argue with. That being said, short of the recent unregulated black market explosion that caused… 6 deaths… there have been quite literally just a handful of complications over 10 years, vs… 388,000 deaths directly related to cigarettes just last year?

The argument being, if they think it’s even remotely logical to prohibit ecigs, then big tobacco HAS to go down with it. There isnt another option. I know it’s all about the money, but everyone is tired of hearing it.

Also, prohibition in general is a pile of shit, but that’s a whole other discussion.

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I would agree with that. They shouldn’t be treated differently.

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For the sake of argument, I dont think any of it should be illegal. Hell, I really dont think recreational drug use should be illegal. I dont think prohibition works. I think people should be allowed to kill themselves slowly if they want. While the most intense stimulants I actively partake in are caffeine and nicotine, I’m not religious, and I fully believe people should be able to spend their short lives however they want, provided it doesnt hurt anyone else.

But… given the fucked state of big brother in the US, I wont be even complacent until they’re both completely gone.

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I hear a lot of people say “They’re aimed at kids! With their fun, fruity flavors, teens can’t resist 'em!”

That makes me laugh. 90% of my friends vape and no one gives a fuck about the flavor. You can’t even really taste half of them. It’s just something they can do to feel cool and “bad” without actually smoking. Cause that gets dirty looks from people and their parents could smell it. Seriously - that’s the main reason they do it - it makes them look tougher (in their opinion).

I personally don’t know anyone who has used vaping to stop smoking. I know you can get juice with less and less nicotine to ease off, but now you can also get juice with more and more nicotine, so I just see a lot of people do that.

I think it should just be left alone. Kids used to smoke, now they vape. If vapes were to disappear, they’d go back to smoking. Adults will do whatever they want. On a separate, but related note, I think drugs should just be legalized. I don’t agree with drug use, for the most part, but people are gonna do it regardless. I think Portugal’s seen success with legalization. Less O.D.'s, less AIDS, less addicts overall.

I smoke 1-2 Black and Mild’s a month, just because I enjoy it and don’t ever feel the urge or need to, I just feel like it. I also vape when offered - so just like a hit or two. I prefer smoking. Is it dumb and unhealthy? Oh yeah. But doing unhealthy things is just about what humans are best at.

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This is actually quite interesting, where do you live if you dont mind me asking?

I’m in Wilmington NC, the industry started up about… 8 years ago I guess? My peers and I never really caught on until we were 21 or so. But I’d say, and without exaggerating, between 40-60% of our town is vaping. It was like… an indescribable wave of people no longer smoking, this massive movement of people actively getting healthier and more productive. I’m young so I never really saw negative consequences of tobacco in my own body. However, my dad completely quick smoking and is remarkably healthier for it. He woke up coughing up black shit, my girlfriend told him to get his shit together and get an ecig, and all of his visible lung problems just… went away. Also. My girlfriends entire family completely quit smoking.

No prob - South Dakota.

See I don’t know enough about it to know - is it actually healthier? I keep hearing things about the metal heating up and you inhaling particles of that cause illness. Is this true or just horror stories to stop people from using?

Maybe it does work to help people quit - it’s just that I personally only know of people that have turned to it because it’s easier to do (doesn’t smell, easier to do, etc.).

So, it’s not without its consequences. It also hasn’t been around long enough to see long term effects. However from what we know, the biggest risk is to people predisposed to pneumonia. Seeing as how it’s a liquid, adding that to someone whose already sensitive can exasperate underlying problems.

Other than that though… there arent any recorded negative side effects other than very exclusive cases. I vape arguably more than the average person, and I’m pretty healthy. It’s definitely a vice, but I have a pretty physical job and lift 4 times a week hard as well, and it doesnt seem to impede whatsoever.

The worst issues were mechanical ones, when ecigs were exploding, which shy of one repeatable case, was 100% user error. Dumb kids doing dumb shit that they knew was dumb.

I do agree it’s easier, but the worst common argument is “you never smoked, why do you vape” to which my favorite reply was “you never smoked, why did you start smoking” you know? People like smoking shit I guess, I dont know.

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Well said. How can you ban e-cig and not regular cancer sticks. My mother, grandmother, and aunt all died from lung cancer. But those deaths don’t count?

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While teetering on the edge of conspiracy, it’s too obvious to just ignore. Big Tobacco runs. Fucking. Everything. It’s a big market as it is, and without ecigs they can keep jacking up prices, and only the strongest willed without an already stressful life will be able to just drop it. Even then, most of those will be on to a patch, or gum, or whatever the next big smoking cessation program is. All the money from the VERY lucrative medical industry… (I’ve seen my xray costs, that machine paid for itself in 2 weeks), the lobbying, the bribes, the borderline illogical amount of income…

And to top it off, the only ecig company that looks to be able survive, is… guess what? Paying big tobacco, and supporting tighter regulations. I’ve hit a Juul, and let me tell you, if there is an ecig I’m concerned about it’s those. My juice is 3mg of nicotine, which while low, is arguably the most common, Juul’s run upward of 56mg. That’s fucking insane, I almost cant stand up after hitting one.

I mean, it’s a complete clusterfuck. Nobody gives a shit about the people, which while surprising no one, has never been as blatant and unapologetically obvious as it is now.

I’m… extremely lackadaisical when it comes to politics, but this act of the government practically putting its hands inside my house is a line I was unaware I had; considering how blatantly wrong, and borderline unconstitutional it is, to remove an entire industry for some backdoor money.

I’m pro gun, but at least those are (can be) used maliciously, and while unconstitutional as shit to remove them, it poses a legitimate threat to others, not just the client.

I’m old enough to remember when smoking was everywhere, and frankly secondary smoke gives me a physical headache. It’s one of the reasons I only hung out in a bar if my friends dragged me along, and whenever I went to a restaurant I choose my table based on where smokers weren’t. My friends who smoked always blew their smoke away from me. If vaping becomes as widespread as smoking was then, well, there’s always staying home and watching Netflix.

Isn’t it just flavored ecigs they’re talking about banning?

Are normal ecigs being banned?

Well, the flavor is the allure to quit smoking. Why smoke when you can get your nicotine from something that tasted like you want to eat it. Tobacco tastes like shit once you’ve been off for a while, and ecigs arent a perfect imitation of cigarettes. So if everything just tastes like tobacco (or completely tasteless) you’re much more likely to just go back to smoking.

ALSO. they’re now trying to ban ALL hardware, which is the nail in the coffin

I thought the ability to decrease the nicotine over time was the allure. Weren’t people using it to quit before flavoring was mass marketed/sold?

Doesn’t this remove a lot of incentive to quit smoking?

I was under the impression vaping is still significantly cheaper than cigarettes. At least that’s what the guy in my dept says.

The only flavored vaping I do is the THC kind, but take away the flavor and you have all the same benefits of ease of carry, lower pricing, more discretion, not having your mouth taste like an ashtray, no need for an open flame, etc. The ONLY appeal you lose is the flavor.

I haven’t even seen a murmur of this, do you have a link?

I mean, yes. I’d call this more of the end goal though. By “allure” I mean, a more publicly friendly, and olfactory accepted alternative. It tastes much better than a cigarette, so while not being identical to a cigarette, has the ability to be more attractive and keep people off more efficiently. Also, I dont remember a time they were unflavored, at least in my metropolitan area. There wasnt much other than Tobacco flavors and novelties like watermelon, but it was still flavored.

Absolutely, but I think this is where a huge breakdown of communication occurs. It’s openly marketed as an alternative, not a cessation device. While yes, the option is there, the ability to just drop a literal addiction combined with a constant hand/mouth fixation is tremendously difficult, and for some people, I’d dare say impossible. This is just a way to have an alternative that wont… you know… kill them. Plus, as mentioned previously, I think people as a whole just enjoy smoking. People from all over the world from all of history have always had some kind of smoke inhalation common in their lives. If people are going to do it, why not offer a way that doesnt give you a damn lung disease?

Yes and no. At first, for sure, you were talking $40 a month vs $200+

Now, with all the different varieties available, I can go through a $25 bottle of juice in 4 days. Depending on the cost of the juice, the device, the frequency of inhalation, the desire for “cloud machines” (which to clear up some confusion here, I have a device that COULD fog out a room, but I continuously choose to inhale and keep it down, but the flavor and heat from the devices is unmatched, and it’s very difficult to go back to something more mild when you’re used to it.)

It should also be made clear again, it isnt just a cessation device. For some people its like… hookah I guess would be a good comparison. Its social and entertaining, and some people treat it as a hobby. Which, you could call dumb, but I could also call being baked on your couch dumb. Or smoking pipes dumb. It’s all subjective.

You’ve brought up a lot of good points about the benefits, but this is probably the biggest draw. For a long time people didn’t want anything other than tobacco flavor (which is still… a flavor). However, recently, it’s almost impossible to even find tobacco flavors. I actually enjoy them, and have a hard time finding any decent ones around town. People like their “fruity shit”.

I cant be bothered to look, but if I remember correctly, it was Mitt Romney and a Democrat looking for a bi-partisan vote on removing all of it.

I should add, Trump is starting to back pedal with the rise of so many people up in arms, so things are actually looking a bit better finally.

Except for Michigan, who just outright banned the shit themselves. Which kind of blows because my dad lives there. I’d argue not for long at this rate.

But obviously there’s tons of other aspects to their allure, right? Even the unflavored smell SIGNIFICANTLY better than cigs, so even unflavored still wins that battle.

My question is, in the new age of vaping, what’s the allure of cigarettes other than “I’m already addicted to them” over vaping?

All of this doesn’t seem to be effected by eliminating flavored vapes.

Have prices gone up that dramatically since vaping became a thing? Admittedly I don’t vape to know how long the juice lasts, but from some brief googling it still seems to be insanely more cost effective assuming EQUAL use to cigarettes.

Making people more inclined to smoke for the fuck of it doesn’t really give flavored a bonus in my mind, when that culture is hitting my generation and younger ones pretty hard.

Plus I genuinely think I should have the ability to respond with force when someone blows a fucking cloud in my face, so I’m already not fond of those people. I 100% believe it should be something I can exercise limited self defense over.

Another question I have is whether or not they’re going to be banning the liquid that would enable people to make their own flavored vapes.

But are we to expect that current vapers, who have already sank the investment money to get going with their rigs, are going to GO BACK to a more expensive, less appealing option, just because flavored gets banned?

People tend to hate being punished because of the existence of bad parents. Never fun when that concept is driving policy change.

I live and work in Ohio within reasonable driving distance of the border. I’ve met very few Michiganders who disagree with the flavored ban. Even the Ohio people in the area have been pushing my metro to join suit.

Michigan won’t be the last state to ban the flavors. All it takes is a few videos cherry picking a couple of the tens of thousands of underage kids who started vaping because it was cool, and suddenly everyone has flashbacks to the retardation of some obscure 2packaday relative that died sounding like a swamp monster at the age of 60.

One of my old classmates is smoking anywhere 2-4 packs a day (but he only smokes like half of the cigarette lol) and going through a can of chew a day. The literal hundreds he’s spending, and the fact that he’ll probably get cancer in a matter of years, almost makes his stupidity amusing.

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