US Americans, Your Education System

[quote]G87 wrote:
This was inspired by a reply in the US Soccer thread:

BigBartDawg66 wrote:
The U.S. doesn’t care what sports the rest of the world cares about. We don’t try to fit in.

My thoughts were:
LMAO at you sounding proud of this. It’s not so much that you, as a nation, don’t care through conscious choice. It’s more like, with the weakest school system in the developed world, you just don’t know any better.

Quite a few media outlets have written about US kids having difficulty with maths and English after graduating from school, and needing extra help in getting ready for uni. Judging from this forum alone, US teens don’t have a very good command of their native language. Of course, I’m just judging from statistics and forum-experience, which isn’t worth much…

So! Everyone who’s from the US… How do you/did you find your education system? I know how weak it is overall, but I’d be quite interested to hear some first-hand accounts about people’s schools. [/quote]

Not to say that the topic of this thread is not a good one, but I fail to see how my post inspired that. Just because I don’t care what sports Europeans feel like playing does not make me uneducated, just uninterested. I just don’t understand why what sports other people play should influence what sports I like. That is what I was getting at.

For the record I have always done very well in school. I could give you GPA, SAT, ACT scores, AP Courses, Academic Scholarships, but you would probably call BS or make fun of me for “trying to impress people on an internet forum”.

All this because I don’t like soccer.

What the hell does America’s lack of interest in soccer have to do with our school system?

[quote]Vicomte wrote:
It did alright by me.[/quote]

Me too. I went to an inner city public school (which had gasp black people!) for my entire pre university education and I turned out just fine. I’m not saying the system is perfect, but like everything else you will get out what you put in.

“Guys, I can’t build any muscle because all I have is 500 pounds of freeweights, a couple bars, benches and a squat rack. I need the iso low lateral pully sit up press machine or nothing works.”

By the way… I just wanted to say, I’m in no way US-bashing. I grew up, largely, on American/international culture, and respect a lot of the principles the country is built on. Being there last summer was, in many ways, amazing.

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
This goes for education in many countries[/quote]

100% true. That’s why the US University system, based on a free-market model, is the best in the world.

[quote]Ratchet wrote:
At the end of the day it comes down to doing what you love and working hard.[/quote]

[quote]Gillium-001 wrote:
I never experienced any of the problems that everyone keeps harping about. The kids that wanted to do well, did. Those that chose to be screw around didn’t do all that well.
[/quote]

Agreed. I went to a crappy, tiny school with second-rate teachers. The few of us who wanted to do well, did. On the other hand, the ones who didn’t, REALLY fucked up. Still, even though I got grades equivalent to about 90-92%, I could’ve had the full 100% if we had good teachers, so as far as trends go, teaching quality DOES matter.

[quote]Therizza wrote:
At least in the USA we don’t have placement tests to see if you’re going to go to bricklayer school or be a chimney sweep. [/quote]

  1. You DO have placement tests. SAT’s, right? :slight_smile:

  2. Which country were you trying to refer to?

[quote]jcoop82 wrote:
I still don’t agree with the underpaid statement.
[/quote]

Why?

[quote]BigBartDawg66 wrote:
Not to say that the topic of this thread is not a good one, but I fail to see how my post inspired that. Just because I don’t care what sports Europeans feel like playing does not make me uneducated, just uninterested. I just don’t understand why what sports other people play should influence what sports I like. That is what I was getting at.

For the record I have always done very well in school. I could give you GPA, SAT, ACT scores, AP Courses, Academic Scholarships, but you would probably call BS or make fun of me for “trying to impress people on an internet forum”.

All this because I don’t like soccer.

[/quote]

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
What the hell does America’s lack of interest in soccer have to do with our school system? [/quote]

Disinterest in soccer must be punished!

Nah, just kidding :). BBD66, apologies if I misunderstood your message. However, it just made me think of how it often seems Americans are only disinterested in world events out of sheer ignorance. Which in turn had me thinking of the weak US education system. I was in no way trying to have a go at you personally. MMF?

I hope our argument can end here. I would hate to be exposed as an uneducated brute on an internet forum. I think everyone sees that you are a superior person, as evidenced by how cultured you are in the realm of world athletics.

Quoted courtesty of http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3347411.html

A substantial body of evidence implies that teachers are not underpaid relative to other professionals. Using data on household median earnings from the U.S. Department of Labor, I compared teachers with seven other professional occupations: accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, social workers, lawyers and judges, artists, and editors and reporters. Weekly pay for teachers in 2001 was about the same (within 10 percent) as for accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, and editors and reporters, while teachers earned significantly more than social workers and artists. Only lawyers and judges earned significantly more than teachersâ??as one would expect, given that the educational training to become a lawyer is longer and more demanding.

Teachers, moreover, enjoy longer vacations and work far fewer days per year than most professional workers. Consider data from the National Compensation Survey of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which computes hourly earnings per worker. The average hourly wage for all workers in the category â??professional specialtyâ?? was $27.49 in 2000. Meanwhile, elementary-school teachers earned $28.79 per hour; secondary-school teachers earned $29.14 per hour; and special-education teachers earned $29.97 per hour. The average earnings for all three categories of teachers exceeded the average for all professional workers. Indeed, the average hourly wage for teachers even topped that of the highest-paid major category of workers, those whose jobs are described as â??executive, administrative, and managerial.â?? Teachers earned more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, atmospheric and space scientists, registered nurses, physical therapists, university-level foreign-language teachers, librarians, technical writers, musicians, artists, and editors and reporters. Note that a majority of these occupations requires as much or even more educational training as does Kâ??12 teaching.

Government data on wages and salaries also exclude fringe benefits. Typically, teachersâ?? retirement and health insurance benefits are more generous than the average professionalâ??s, particularly those who work in the private sector. Federal data suggest that, on average, teachers receive a package of benefits valued at more than 26 percent of their salaries. By contrast, the average for â??all domestic industriesâ?? is about 19 percent; for private industries it is even less, below 17 percent. Take health insurance. Federal data suggest that about one-half of teachers pay nothing for single coverage (the employer pays everything), whereas the proportion of private â??professional and technicalâ?? workers who pay nothing is only one-fourth. If direct hourly compensation averages perhaps 5 to 8 percent more for teachers than for all professional workers, and fringe benefits are perhaps 5 percent more, all told, teachersâ?? average hourly compensation plus benefits exceeds the average for all professional workers by roughly 10 to 15 percent. In addition, teachers experience more job security, rarely suffering layoffs or firings. An architectâ??s income falls with recession-induced declines in construction spending, while the economy is currently littered with unemployed computer programmers, whose jobs disappeared when the dotcom bubble popped. Most risk-averse persons would gladly accept some decline in average annual income in order to avoid unexpected adverse shocks to their standard of living. Thus, in a â??risk-adjustedâ?? sense, teacher pay is often substantially higher than that of comparable occupations.

The reason the US of A appears to be at the bottom of the developed world’s testing skills is because the furriners cheat. Just like in the olympics.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Vicomte wrote:
It did alright by me.

Me too. I went to an inner city public school (which had gasp black people!) for my entire pre university education and I turned out just fine.
[/quote]

My school had one, I think.

Or maybe he was just a really tan Italian.

[quote]sen say wrote:
The reason the US of A appears to be at the bottom of the developed world’s testing skills is because the furriners cheat. Just like in the olympics.[/quote]

For the record, I’m pretty sure Phelps has retard strength.

That’s probably relevant to this thread.

Somehow.

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
As a Teacher, I can tell you the constant issue in NYC. We get complaints about how bad our city schools are, and yet they keep cutting funding and refuse to offer competitive salaries. The constant question raised is ‘how the hell can you attract qualified educators, and expect them to perform well without adequate supplies, too many students in a classroom, and being so worried about getting positive reviews from their micromanaging supervisors to do a good job?’

S
[/quote]

I’m going to respond w/o further reading the thread first. If this was pointed out already, I’m sorry for being redundant…

Ok I see what you’re saying and I mostly agree with you. What’s your take on schools lowering the requirements for passing?
And how do you account for the fact that the kids here learn a LOT of the stuff in later grades? (If at all) What I’m talking about is the fact that I came here when I was 16 and went to HS here for 2 years. I guarantee you that I never picked up a book or did my homework for that matter, unless it was English. All other subjects were a piece of cake for me throughout my whole HS experience, since I already learned all of the stuff (and much more) in grades 6-8 in Europe.
I’m sorry man but the whole educational system here is a joke. Even college. You don’t REALLY learn anything unless you do your own research. At least my experience. Then again, it’s not just my experience. many people i know that came here from elsewhere are saying the same thing.

I want to clarify that I’m by no means trying to attack you, or to say that what you do is not important. I’m just talking about the system

PS: Stu i didn’t realize you’re in NY. What borough do you live/teach in? If you don’t mind me asking

Thanks

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
Our educational system has been stifled by government monopoly and a teachers union whose interest is in protecting their members and keeping salaries & benefits artificially high, rather than rewarding achievement. A free-market solution is needed and it’s time to get the government completely out of education. It should be run by private for-profit and non-profit entities. Teachers should be paid based on performance, not tenure. Parents should be allowed to choose the school they wish their children to attend rather than have their property confiscated to support a system that is sub-par.

[/quote]

This is a horrible idea that will only make the US educational system much worse. While a free market style system will bring up performance, for sure, it will be not be the type of “performance” one wants. You cannot leave issues of pedagogy and epistemological value up to the free market. You think American students fail at math now? Wait until you see the sort of mathematical training that the “free market” demands… The standards of education must be set by those who, are, well, educated… Not by what the masses think is of value or by what some businesses think their employees should know.

Leave vocational training to the free market, but academic education? please.

I always hear people saying teachers should be paid by performance, and it sounds like a nice idea, but how, exactly, do you do this? If performance is based off test scores, then you run into the problems of teaching the test and not the subject. If it’s based off passing grades, graduation rate, or something similar, then you will see lower standards just so people hit their numbers.

I like the idea of teachers getting paid by performance level, I just don’t know how it can be implemented.

Public education is state run. Itâ??s hard to group such vastly different areas into one single category. Iâ??ve been in schools systems in S.C. with terrible situations, woefully understaffed, under supplied and with terrible educational results. Iâ??ve also been in really good public education systems in GA and VA.

So much depends on where you are. There are vast differences in quality of education state to state and even county to county I think itâ??s futile to try and quantify American education as a whole.

Yes the teachers are underpaid, but the schools aren’t. It’s just that the top dogs keep most of the money for themselves. I happen to agree with this one documentary I saw not so long ago. Go to google video and search for “stupid in america” should be about 40 mins or so. i agree with it, cuz the schools I went to in Europe had relatively significantly less money and we learned more.

I would like to point out that I still think that USA is one of the best countries when it comes to personal growth in all areas, and I love it here. i just think it would be even better with better educational system

so all this means is that your country is going to get their ass kicked by stupid people in a sport where the the country who’s team is representing doesnt give a shit about their sport.

Performance type systems are being implemented across the country with success. Also, you can look at it in a number of ways, malonetd, you can say that teachers will teach the test but not if they aren’t the ones writing it up. If they are told to teach a certain part of American History and the kids will get graded on that particular area then the teacher has no choice but to teach that area. That type of mentality provides an opportunity for teachers to improve themselves and grow, understand that one technique may reach one group of kids but another group of kids may need something different.
There has been a merit system implemented in a part of missouri, among other places, with good success. The turn-over rate of teachers in that system have dropped, student performance is up, and the teachers are saying it is making them better. Sure there will still be slackers just as there will be overachievers but I think that type of system will have a more positive effect.

[quote]malonetd wrote:
I always hear people saying teachers should be paid by performance, and it sounds like a nice idea, but how, exactly, do you do this? If performance is based off test scores, then you run into the problems of teaching the test and not the subject. If it’s based off passing grades, graduation rate, or something similar, then you will see lower standards just so people hit their numbers.

I like the idea of teachers getting paid by performance level, I just don’t know how it can be implemented.[/quote]

exactly… performance evaluations are largely only workable in a vocational type situation, where there are clear standards–i.e., do you have the skills to do a job?

Then again, I see how this confuses people in America. They generally equate secondary and university education with job training and judge its usefulness by “when they’re going to use it”, to twist a cliche phrase.

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
ds1973 wrote:
Our educational system has been stifled by government monopoly and a teachers union whose interest is in protecting their members and keeping salaries & benefits artificially high, rather than rewarding achievement. A free-market solution is needed and it’s time to get the government completely out of education. It should be run by private for-profit and non-profit entities. Teachers should be paid based on performance, not tenure. Parents should be allowed to choose the school they wish their children to attend rather than have their property confiscated to support a system that is sub-par.

This is a horrible idea that will only make the US educational system much worse. While a free market style system will bring up performance, for sure, it will be not be the type of “performance” one wants. You cannot leave issues of pedagogy and epistemological value up to the free market. You think American students fail at math now? Wait until you see the sort of mathematical training that the “free market” demands… The standards of education must be set by those who, are, well, educated… Not by what the masses think is of value or by what some businesses think their employees should know.

Leave vocational training to the free market, but academic education? please. [/quote]

BECAUSE education is important, it SHOULD be free of government tyranny and monopoly.

Collectivism’s Sacred Cow: Public Education
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=40

Please define the performance one “wants”. Who are you to judge if a child is best served by vocational school, academia, etc?

Why should I be forced, at the point of a gun, to subsidize “public school” if I choose to send my children to a private one? If I can’t afford to send them to a private school, because the government is stealing my money to fund their socialist utopia, why should my children be exposed to the constant brainwashing that is modern environmentalism and collectivism?

If you want to establish uniform thinking on a subject and ensure that dissenting ideas are not heard, public education is the perfect way to establish this.

Maybe YOU don’t want to take responsibility for guiding your childs philosophical and intellectual growth, but I do. I can already see the programming taking place and my daughter just finished first grade. Isn’t reading writing and arithmetic enough?

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

BECAUSE education is important, it SHOULD be free of government tyranny and monopoly.

Collectivism’s Sacred Cow: Public Education
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=40

Please define the performance one “wants”. Who are you to judge if a child is best served by vocational school, academia, etc?

Why should I be forced, at the point of a gun, to subsidize “public school” if I choose to send my children to a private one? If I can’t afford to send them to a private school, because the government is stealing my money to fund their socialist utopia, why should my children be exposed to the constant brainwashing that is modern environmentalism and collectivism?

If you want to establish uniform thinking on a subject and ensure that dissenting ideas are not heard, public education is the perfect way to establish this.

Maybe YOU don’t want to take responsibility for guiding your childs philosophical and intellectual growth, but I do. I can already see the programming taking place and my daughter just finished first grade. Isn’t reading writing and arithmetic enough?[/quote]

Please, this is a clear strawman. You’re assuming that government run education need mean liberal brainwashing. I never even said that education should be government run in the first place… just that it shouldn’t be up the whims of the free market.

Besides, in many ways we already have a system where your average joe gets to decide how secondary schools and universities are run. You have school districts that are trying to introduce “inteligent design” into science class rooms and Colleges that care more about catering to students then providing a good education. The problems we have now from this limited free choice would only be compounded if the system was a true free market system.

The point is you need independently established rigorous and high standards. You will not have those if schools are set up in a free market style system. In that case you will have schools providing whatever your average joe wants, and I’m sorry, but your average joe isn’t qualified to decide what the proper standards are for math and reading.

Although I think we might be talking past each other a bit. If you want the government out of funding schools but still want some sort of national standards on curriculum, then yeah, this is probably workable. My complaints haven’t been about school funding being in a free market setting, but rather also letting curriculum and performance standards up to the free market.