T Nation

Unsuccessful PCT


#1

I was doing cycle on testosterone e (500 mg / week) in 2014, from March to August. During the cycle I used provorion as anti e and it was enough for controling e2.

Now, 3 years after the course, I was not able to recover. Estradiol is still about 85 pg / ml (10-40) and testosterone is on the lower range (3.5 ng / ml, r. 3.5-12). I passed several endocrinologist professors in my country, but no one knew what’s wrong, it seems to me they less understand male hormons than I thought they would.

I used Nolvadex, Clomiphen and Aromasin as PCT, after I realisd my body hans’t recovered yet, I did repeated PCT for two times in 2015, without success.

Is there any way I can break e2 and restart my body?

Here’s my blood work, it’s constant during the last 3 years:

Testosterone 3.4 ng/ml (3.5-12)
Estradiol 85.8 pg/ml (10-40)
Beta HCG 0.4 (o-3.5)
Cortisol 310.6 (130-690)
Aldosteron 12.1 (0-34)
Inhibin B 99 (50-250) (antithesis of FSH)
FSH 9.7 (1-14)
LH 21. 6 (2-12)
Prolactin 6.6 (1.5-12)
SHBG 20 (13-71)
DHEAS 190 (80-560)
Alanine 26 (0-41)
Aspartate 31 (0-42)

I did an ultrasound of the testicles, prostate, cranial MRI, thyroid test, chest CT scan, ultrasound of abdomen, pelvis and adrenal glands, OGTT, hepatogram, proteingram, serum lipid levels, creatinine clearance, complete blood test, urinculture, hemoculture and everything was all right. I got an ultrasound of mammary glands, I got lipomastia from elevated e2. Nipples are hard and vibrating or tingling for 24h of day. Heat waves are present every day, as well as complete loss of power. My hands shrinked 1 cm during the last 3 years.


#2

You have higher LH/FSH and low T. That is the definition of a degree of primary hypogonadism. That cannot be fixed unless there is a bilateral vascular abnormality that can be surgically repaired. Ultrasound would have detected that.

With low T and high E2, liver clearance of E2 is suspected impaired. Can be a liver problem or disease. You did not post AST/ALT lab data.

You should try 0.5mg anastrozole per week in divided doses. After labs, change to get near E2=22pg/ml. That will make you feel better and increase LH/FSH and that increase may not provide much increase in T.

If you were taking a SERM for that lab work, I will have to rewrite this.

Is cholesterol low? <160?

What thyroid lab results?
See last paragraph in this post.

You may want to open a thread in the T replacement forum for your case.

Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys - need more info about you
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.


#3

AST 20
ALT 21
ALP 91
Gama GT 21
Cholesterol 4.23 nmol/l (3 - 5.2)
TSH 2.2 (1.4 - 3.1)

Before cycle, my test was 9.1 (3.5 - 12) and e2 at 16 (10 - 40). Doc’s tried with TRT, but e2 went crazy to 180 pg / ml, and professors (there are two) of endocrinology said that I’m not hypo, since my e2 is somehow blocking test to come back.

I done PCT with Clomid and Nolvadex in 2014 first time, and two times more the same in 2015, but nothing. I think my e2 went crazy after use of Clomid. This year I used Aromasin, which was great (14 pg / ml), but day after last admisison e2 went back to 80+.

It’s a hell.


#4

Never stack SERM’s.
Clomid 25mg EOD or Nolvadex 20mg EOD is all that is needed.
Violating above can lead to very high E2 levels from high T–>E2 inside the testes where anastrozole cannot work.

On TRT, use anastrozole to manage E2, “e2 is somehow blocking test to come back” is meaningless.

Inject T twice a week
0.5 mg anastrozole at time of T injections
adjust anastrozole dose to get near E2=80pmol/L, 22 pg/ml

Some are anastrozole over-responders who need 1/4th the dose that others needs.

Those other labs look good,
except that TSH=2.0 should be closer to 1.0
The thyroid lab ranges are maddeningly stupid.

You may have an iodine deficiency.

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.

Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category


#5

I did just that

300 mg of Clomiphene for first 3 days, than 250 mg, than 200, than 100 mg for the rest of second week and 50 mg for third week.

On day 3 I finished in ER with 190/140 pressure and heart rate of 154 bmp.

After that, my e2 never came back to baseline. So, it’s clomiphen after all.

Okay, if I understand you well - I should use TRT only to induce atrophy of testicles again, so that aromatase in testicle can disappear, as nothing will work there, therefore I should stick to new PCT without e2 or excessive aromatase after cycle?

How much t per week? How doses should look like? For how long?