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Unresponsive Shoulders...

Im doing madcows 5X5 and everything is going great except my shoulders dont appear to be getting any bigger while the rest of me is gaining great.

This might sound strange but ive gained on all lifts except the military press. I use an olympic bar, behind hte neck - ive tried infront of the neck but my form goes and my back arches too much. Ive tried bringing the weight right down , but always reach the same sticking point around 40kgs or so on the last set. i can never quite bring out the 5 reps and therfore reset week after week.

I have put weight on through big eating and bill starr(im on week 6 now ) have added mass to my chest, arms and legs, but my shoulders havent moved at all. Infact - my triceps/biceps have responded so well that they stick out beyond my shoulders giving even more of an impression of being too narrow.

I dont want to fuck with the 5X5 at all, but I dont like looking lopsided and… I used to fry my shoulders twice a week with raises, presses until hey hurt like hell the next day. Now they dont hurt and they still dont grow… Any suggestions? Do 3X8 side raises every session? shut up and keep going with it? Does anyone here have a particular bodypart that just bugs them too?

you’re totally mixing up training paradigms. The Madcow is mainly for strength, particularly on the squat. If your “delts” aren’t getting blasted, it’s because they’re not supposed to. How long have you been on the programme? How much are you eating?

Just a note, when some of you want advice on training, you need to understand that not everyone follows every single routine that gets thrown around. I have no clue what “madcows 5x5” is and don’t care. That means I have no clue what you mean by claiming you do this but can’t get your shoulders to grow.

It would be common sense to me that if what I was doing was NOT getting the results I was after, I would quit doing it.

Exactly what is said above, if the program is not geared for enlarging muscles, in this case shoulders, then change it.

Either that, or modify it and throw in some extra direct shoulder work.

You need more volume. Period. if something is unresponsive, blast it with more direct volume. Most of the times.

Yeah ive been thinking about modifying the routine, I just know the whole 5x5 bill starr thing beins to fall apart when everyone wants to mess around with it (from other posts)

So im going to do side raises at every session. Just 3 X 8 and on day two im going to do clean and press and 3 sets of arnold presses and see how we go.

You could try doing overhead presses with dumbbells.

Ben check the recent T-Nation article on 3-2-1 training for the shoulders.

Delts are very unresponsive for me, but traps do respond. Kinda weird. The above-mentioned article shows how to hit all three delt heads, mainly the posterior (back), then the lateral (side), then the anterior (front).

Hope that helps. Could be you just are genetically a slow delt responder.

I think your right about the genetics thing. I know its an easy cop out to say that, but i know guys who have never been near a gym in their lives and they have bigger delts than me. These guys are not fat either. Quite annoying.

Its funny about the traps - mine respond well too. I think they can also reduce the appearance of width in shoulders so Ive never been into shrugging etc… I’ll try that routine though. Its cool as long as it doesnt hinder my 5x5 workouts which im sure it wont as long as im not replacing any of the compounds.

Cheers guys!

Incline Bench Press and face pulls on a seated cable row with a tricep rope are good for the front and rear delts. I honestly think that the best way to get bigger shoulders is with lateral raises.

Here’s a thought. If you don’t like the military press do the push-press or jerks. But that could potentially fuck up your leg training. Just think about a way to use jerks or the push press. They’re good for shoulders and you can progress quickly with them weight wise.

Sorry but thats bullshit, just train harder and change up your routine if its not working. Perhaps your traps are responding bc you dont perform your lateral raises correctly and use more traps than delts?

Tell me what you do typically for delts. Are the presses the only thing you do?

Take a look at any of my delt routines in my old progress log called AA’s progress log or take one of the delt sessions in the BOI thread. Hit one of those sessions with intensity and PM me afterwards if you can still type.

The thing is not every bodypart grows equally, my “weak area” is my legs. So I hit them harder, heavier and more often and guess what, they respond. No one is going to hand it to you bro so go out there and take it.

Good luck and train hard,
A

[quote]Benreturns wrote:
I think your right about the genetics thing. I know its an easy cop out to say that, but i know guys who have never been near a gym in their lives and they have bigger delts than me. These guys are not fat either. Quite annoying.

Its funny about the traps - mine respond well too. I think they can also reduce the appearance of width in shoulders so Ive never been into shrugging etc… I’ll try that routine though. Its cool as long as it doesnt hinder my 5x5 workouts which im sure it wont as long as im not replacing any of the compounds.

Cheers guys![/quote]

Do you guys who are principally interested in bodybuilding find that push-presses are a good investment in your training time to acquire shoulder and triceps mass, or not?

Just curious–what shoulder and triceps mass I have, I acquired mostly from training my push-press.

[quote]Ross Hunt wrote:
Do you guys who are principally interested in bodybuilding find that push-presses are a good investment in your training time to acquire shoulder and triceps mass, or not?

Just curious–what shoulder and triceps mass I have, I acquired mostly from training my push-press.[/quote]

What the hell is a “push press”?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Ross Hunt wrote:
Do you guys who are principally interested in bodybuilding find that push-presses are a good investment in your training time to acquire shoulder and triceps mass, or not?

Just curious–what shoulder and triceps mass I have, I acquired mostly from training my push-press.

What the hell is a “push press”?[/quote]

LOL…

You are joking, right?

In case you weren’t, this is a push-press:

This guy has the best technique I could find via google. Obviously, you don’t have to power clean it or put it down between reps: you can just lower to the chest, bending the knees to absorb the shock, and drive straight up again.

[quote]Ross Hunt wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Ross Hunt wrote:
Do you guys who are principally interested in bodybuilding find that push-presses are a good investment in your training time to acquire shoulder and triceps mass, or not?

Just curious–what shoulder and triceps mass I have, I acquired mostly from training my push-press.

What the hell is a “push press”?

LOL…

You are joking, right?[/quote]

My guess is, the exercise you are talking about has other names because, no, in several years of training I have not heard of a push-press and doubt most of the people at the gym I train at right now know what that is.

Ditto, but then again I have been known to make up names for shit left and right.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Ross Hunt wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Ross Hunt wrote:
Do you guys who are principally interested in bodybuilding find that push-presses are a good investment in your training time to acquire shoulder and triceps mass, or not?

Just curious–what shoulder and triceps mass I have, I acquired mostly from training my push-press.

What the hell is a “push press”?

LOL…

You are joking, right?

My guess is, the exercise you are talking about has other names because, no, in several years of training I have not heard of a push-press and doubt most of the people at the gym I train at right now know what that is.[/quote]

We called that power cleans or even “clean and jerks” without the follow through. I have never heard of that exercise referred to as a “push press” and would not consider that the best movement for shoulder size. I think it would have its greatest benefit to a rank beginner who wasn’t very strong overall. I am not a beginner. To most who aren’t extremely weak, I would wonder why they are avoiding overhead presses and side lateral raises.

That was always considered to be a “power movement” meaning it had its uses for sports training and in building a base for strength.

Yeah clean and press, push-press? Where is the push?

We did those in college when I played ball. It was to become more explosive but I never saw it as a mass builder for delts. military barbell and DB’s, DB lateral raises, and diff variations thereof. Also, dont forget your rear delts so you dont look hunched over like most people in the gym.

A

[quote]Professor X wrote:
We called that power cleans or even “clean and jerks” without the follow through. I have never heard of that exercise referred to as a “push press” and would not consider that the best movement for shoulder size. I think it would have its greatest benefit to a rank beginner who wasn’t very strong overall. I am not a beginner. To most who aren’t extremely weak, I would wonder why they are avoiding overhead presses and side lateral raises.

That was always considered to be a “power movement” meaning it had its uses for sports training and in building a base for strength. [/quote]

Cool, thanks for the responses.

It’s called a push-press because the lifter doesn’t dip under the barbell. The leg drive (the ‘push’–I guess…) usually carries the barbell to somewhere a little above the top of your head and you press it out with with your delts and triceps. The lifter in the video really blasts through quickly. Max attempts often look like a slow press at the top of the movement. Oly lifters use it mostly as strength assistance for the jerk. I could see how leg drive would be the limiting factor for lifters who don’t emphasize that, though.

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Yeah clean and press, push-press? Where is the push?

[/quote]

Without the term “clean” it doesn’t even describe what it is. It is like someone is now coming up with new names for shit that has been around for a century.