T Nation

Unorthodox PCT Plan

In a few weeks I am coming off 70mg TP ED and 25mg dbol TID. I am also pinning 75iu hCG ED, which I found to be more effective than E3D injections. Since the introduction of dbol, I have been using 0.25mg adex ED as well.

I had planned to pin my last dose the day after my powerlifting meet, then wait 4 days for the ester to clear completely, then run a standard 40/40/20/20 nolva PCT. After doing a lot of reading on DatBtrue’s forum, I have changed my tune.

This is what I’m thinking now.

Day 0 is meet day:
-1: 100mg TP, 25mg dbol TID, 0.25mg adex, 75 iu hCG
0: 100mg TP, 25mg dbol TID, 0.25mg adex (morning), 0.5mg adex (evening), 75 iu hCG
1: 80mg TP, 0.5mg adex, 75 iu hCG, GHRP+GHRH BID
2: 60mg TP, 0.5mg adex, 75 iu hCG, GHRP+GHRH BID
3: 40mg TP, 0.5mg adex, 75 iu hCG, GHRP+GHRH BID
4: 20mg TP, 0.5mg adex, 75 iu hCG, GHRP+GHRH BID
5: 0.25mg adex, 75 iu hCG, 12.5mg clomid, GHRP+GHRH BID
6: 0.25mg adex, 75 iu hCG, 12.5mg clomid, GHRP+GHRH BID
7: 0.25mg adex, 12.5mg clomid, GHRP+GHRH BID

Start PCT:
1-10: 50mg clomid, GHRP+GHRH BID
11-20: 25mg clomid, GHRP+GHRH BID
20-34: 20mg nolva, GHRP+GHRH BID
35-48: 10mg nolva, GHRP+GHRH BID

The idea is to kill off as much estrogen as possible leading up to PCT so that T and E can rise together once PCT starts - 0.5mg ED is just a starting point, I will basically be dosing adex until my joints hurt. The only reason I am tapering off the test prop is to give myself a few extra days to run an AI while there is still test hanging around - I don’t expect that the taper will do anything for me except save a few bucks on drugs. I am also convinced that a 72 hour half-life for prop is extremely optimistic - I suspect that my exogenous test will be effectively zero with just 3 days cleaning time after that taper.

I am starting PCT with clomid because it has been shown to make pituitary estrogen receptors more sensitive to GnRH, which nolvadex does not do. With such a large AI dose through the end of the cycle and clearing time, the hCG dose should not cause any suppression, so I will continue to run it to keep the boys awake.

If I can get my hands on insulin, I intend to run it at sane doses with the peptides, as insulin has been shown to increase both LH and FSH. I am still working out exactly how I will run my peptides, but right now I am thinking 100mcg ipamorelin + 60mcg mod grf 1-29 pre bed ED, 100 mcg ghrp-2 + 60 mcg mod grf post-training on training days, and two doses of 50 mcg ghrp-2 + 30mcg mod grf on non-training days.

I would like to hear any critiques. If anyone has questions, just ask. I have two weeks before I have to implement this, so I am still open to suggestions, willing to talk about the research that led me to this, etc.

[quote]hockeysledder wrote:

I am starting PCT with clomid because it has been shown to make pituitary estrogen receptors more sensitive to GnRH, which nolvadex does not do. With such a large AI dose through the end of the cycle and clearing time, the hCG dose should not cause any suppression, so I will continue to run it to keep the boys awake.

I would like to hear any critiques. If anyone has questions, just ask. I have two weeks before I have to implement this, so I am still open to suggestions, willing to talk about the research that led me to this, etc.ing 100mcg ipamorelin + 60mcg mod grf 1-29 pre bed ED, 100 mcg ghrp-2 + 60 mcg mod grf pos

Reading through your plan it sounds interesting, I will definitely be following how things go for you. One point of curiosity, was your reasons for using clomid vs. nolvadex. This is one thing I’ve been reviewing for a while now myself, and while I agree that clomid is proven to be effective and has lots of scientific literature to back it up, I was under the impression that it was in fact Nolvadex that has the effect of increasing pituitary sensitivity to GnRH whereas Clomid may not do this to the same extent although it MAY be slightly more powerful in stimulating the hypothalamus. You state you’ve read what appears to be the exact opposite.

It’s possible that the information I read was incorrect, or maybe there’s just some conflicting research out there. However I’m pretty sure I read the same information from a couple of sources, one for sure was here: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/nolvadex_post_cycle_1

^^ A piece by William Llewellyn reposted by sturat (3rd post from top), not saying it’s the final word - but it had me convinced until now. I’d love to read the material you got the info on clomid from if you can post or PM me a link?

The research does not appear to be conclusive, assuming that William Llewellyn understood the studies that he was reading. Honestly, I am slightly more inclined to trust an in vitro study than an in vivo study of normal men, because coming off an AAS cycle, your hormonal profile is not that of a normal man. This is particularly true if you take steps to eliminate as much estrogen as possible leading up to PCT - E2 is no longer the dominant hormone.

Thank you for your reply, I intend to continue my literature survey, subject to my crazy work schedule, and will be keeping this thread up to date. It will also serve as a log once I start PCT.

Regarding Clomid vs. Nolvadex:

Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro, E. Y. Adashi, A. J. Hsueh, T. H. Bambino and S. S. Yen, AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism, Vol 240, Issue 2 125-E130

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M.

Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively.

Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

Regarding insulin in PCT:

Insulin augments GnRH-stimulated LHbeta gene expression by Egr-1, Buggs C, Weinberg F, Kim E, Wolfe A, Radovick S, Wondisford F., Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2006 Apr 25;249(1-2):99-106

Previous studies have shown that insulin augments GnRH-stimulated LH synthesis and release from primary gonadotrophs. In this study, regulation of LHbeta gene expression by GnRH and insulin was examined in LbetaT2 cells. Endogenous LHbeta mRNA is stimulated 2.4-fold by insulin alone, 2.6-fold by GnRH alone, and 4.7-fold by insulin together with GnRH.

This effect of insulin, like GnRH, mapped to sequences -140 to +1 in the mouse LHbeta gene. Insulin together with GnRH stimulates activity of an LHbeta-reporter gene 7.1-fold; whereas, GnRH alone or insulin alone stimulates the reporter activity 2.8- and 3.1-fold, respectively. Blocking the binding of Egr-1 to sequences -51 to -42 in the LHbeta gene inhibits effects of insulin and GnRH. Insulin together with GnRH increases Egr-1 mRNA levels and total Egr-1 binding to LHbeta DNA. These findings indicate that insulin may impact regulation of the reproductive axis at the level of the pituitary.

Here’s how things actually went down:

Day 0 is meet day, today is day 2:
-1: 50mg TP (AM), 50mg TP (PM), 100mg dbol in divided doses, 250 iu hCG
0: 50mg TP (AM), 100mg dbol in divided doses, 75 iu hCG
1: 30mg TP, 50mg dbol, 0.75mg adex, 250 iu hCG
2: 20mg dbol, 0.75mg adex, 250 iu hCG, trial dose of GHRP+GHRH
3: 0.75mg adex, GHRP+GHRH BID
4: 0.75mg adex, GHRP+GHRH BID
5: Start clomid PCT

I plan to reconstitute my peptides this afternoon and run a half-strength trial dose. Adex may go up. If I notice any testicular shrinkage before the start of PCT, I will give myself another 250iu dose of hCG. After a lot of reading, I’ve come to the conclusion that hCG is not nearly as suppressive as we seem to be afraid that it is. There is no direct negative feedback at the hypothalamus, and with the adex killing almost all of my estrogen, it shouldn’t be suppressive at all.

The adex is working. My knees fucking hurt. Will be taking 1mg ED until PCT.

I took a dose of 100 mcg GHRP6 and 25mcg Mod GRF 1-29. This is twice the dose of G6 I had intended, but drawing 1 tic on a 0.5cc slin pin is a real bitch. I would love some advice here, it’s very hard to avoid a bubble forming when my vial is at neutral pressure, and the G6 vial is at negative pressure, so it actually sucked 25mcg of grf into th vial… Oops. It looks like I will probably be backfilling.

I had mild sides - a little hunger, thirst, a brief weird feeling in my gut, a lightheaded/dizzy feeling that almost exactly mimcs the ‘come up’ of LSD.

Will be trying Ipa before bed.

I slept better last night, but it’s hard to tell if that was the ipamorelin, or the fact that I stayed up too late and was dead tired.

Pinned 100mcg G6 and 50mcg mod grf first thing this morning, no sides at all, will fast for another few hours, then hit the gym for a recovery workout.

Took 40g of BCAAs before training, then pinned another dose of G6 after training, then started eating 10 minutes later… waiting 20 minutes after a fasted pwo dose is going to take some getting used to. I had forgotten how hungry I get when readjusting to morning fasts, and I need to be careful to keep my total calories up.

ah good I’ve been looking forward to you starting the peptides.

I’ll be following this to see how it turns out

Planning my eating around the peptides is going to take some getting used to. I was supposed to pin before bed last night, which would have been about 1030, but I had eaten at 9, so there was no way my stomach was empty. I wound up just leaving the pin in the bathroom and pinned at 230 when I woke up… I always wake up a couple times in the middle of the night, but after I pinned I fell right back to sleep and didn’t wake up until my alarm. The evidence is starting to mount that ipa + mod helps me sleep.

Pinned G6 + mod first thing this morning. I don’t appear to get sides from ipa or G6. Will be trying G2 later today.

Pinned G2 then ate my first meal of the day, which was pretty massive. I’m sitting here with a totally full stomach but I’m still hungry, which is a mildly unpleasant sensation. It’s hard to tell, though, if this is my body readjusting to IF or the result of the G2.

Drank the rest of my bottle of liquidex this morning, could have been as much as 2mg, elbows and knees don’t feel great, but otherwise I’m fine and will be starting clomid in 2 days.

Last meal (pork) at 2100 last night, then went to bed at 2300, so I didn’t pin pre-bed because I’m sure my stomach was still full. Woke up at 0130 - this is normally when I first wake up - and pinned ipa, slept for a couple of hours, then woke up about 6 times between 0400 and 0600. Finally got out of bed and slept on my giant beanbag instead, where I fell right to sleep.

I doubt it was the ipa that interfered with my sleep - unfortunately I just don’t sleep that well some nights. I am going to be fixing my eating schedule so that my last meal is something quicker-digesting like chicken and I can just pin right before bed, maybe that will help.

I definitely get hunger sides from G2. I pinned it at 0900 this morning, and I’m sitting here 50 minutes later, fucking starving, and can’t eat for another 2 hours. G2 will definitely be reserved for times when I can eat after pinning.

Pinned G2 again around 1200 after a recovery workout, then ate what was probably a 2000+ calorie meal from Penn Station. Feel awesome, but bloated.

I need to drop about 4-5% bf, so my food choices will get better as I slowly wean myself off the junk food that I was using to gain weight on my cycle. I’m not in any hurry to lose weight, though, since I don’t want to risk losing muscle, and my next training cycle will focus heavily on rehabbing my shoulder and low back.

EDIT: forgot to add that I will taking my first dose of clomid soon.

Last night - Took my first 50mg dose of clomid. Liquid clomid tastes TERRIBLE. I wish I could inject it. Watched the NFL draft with friends, so I ended up coming home way after my normal bedtime. Pinned 150mcg ipa + 50mcg mod , waited a few minutes, then ate. Didn’t wake up a single time during the night, but that could have been because I was so tired.

This morning - Took a dose of 100mg clomid to frontload a little, then a normal dose of G6 plus a small energy drink, and now I’m starving and can’t eat for 3 hours. Awesome. I’m going to have to consider dropping the AM dose if I keep getting hungry. Gonna take a walk here in a little bit.

My libido has officially tanked. Is this normal when just starting PCT? I still get morning wood, though the quality is not great. I also got emotional sides from clomid after the 100mg dose. Moodiness, mainly.

Some observations on the peptides:
Ipa - No sides up to 75mcg
G6 - Mild hunger occasionally at 50mcg, hunger always at 75mcg
G2 - Hunger and bowel movements always at 75mcg, usually hunger at 50mcg. Definitely has an effect on cortisol, because I get the same mild anxiety and “uncomfortable in my own skin” feeling as with corticosteroids.

G6 looks like a winner. I tolerate G2 OK, best in the mornings, but it’s a real bitch taking something that makes you pretty hungry and then fasting for 4+ more hours.

Went for an hour-long walk in the sun to buy groceries 60 minutes after pinning my first dose this morning. Going to get at least 3 similar very low intensity cardio sessions in this week.

EDIT: Fixed dosages. See next post.

Well, I’m an idiot. I diluted all of my peptides to the same concentration and have been giving myself equal volumes of each. So I’ve actually been giving myself no more than 75mcg of any peptide. Oops.

Will report back in a few days about side effects at the 100-150 mcg range.

[quote]hockeysledder wrote:
I also got emotional sides from clomid after the 100mg dose. Moodiness, mainly.

i was talking about this with a mate of mine the other day. He told me he felt himself welling up watching the Karate Kid!

GHRP-2 and GHRP-6 both make me mildly hungry with 100-150mcg doses, but not the ravenous hunger that some people claim to experience. I have had a 0% incidence of pseudo-hypoglycemia on any peptide, and a 0% incidence of sides with ipamorelin.

I am about as bloated as when I was taking dbol, which is odd. I can’t tell if it’s the peptides or high estrogen from the SERMs.

My recovery is not great. I am still fine in the gym, and hit a couple of big PRs raw, but my energy is low and I haven’t had a libido in 9 days (today is 13 days after my last TP injection). Because I am not 100% sure that my clomid is actually clomid, or how it’s actually dosed (it’s research grade), I am continuing to take 50mg ED, but I also started 40mg pharma grade nolva ED yesterday.

I’m sure it’s not normal to bounce right back from a 12 week cycle, but when should I start to be worried about my low T symptoms? How long into PCT do you usually get before starting to feel normal again?

How’d you do at the meet?

Are you taking trib? I know lots of guys take that post cycle.

As for low T, everyone is different. i was on 16 weeks, sex drive was the same off as I did on. I did use some cilias to make sure things were working perfectly. Its not meant to make you more honry but every time I take it I am.

[quote]krazylarry wrote:
How’d you do at the meet?[/quote]

Great. I didn’t gain as much weight as I would have liked on cycle, so I weighed in at 197, went in at 206. I hit a 650 (single ply) squat and missed 700 entirely because of technique. Judging by how fast 650 went up, I was absolutely strong enough to squat 700, but I didn’t sit back into the suit, got forward on my toes, and when 700# gets out in front of my 200# center of gravity… it’s all over.

I took a token bench bc my shoulder is in bad shape. I pulled 520 with only a belt (I hate deadlift suits), and it was fast. I should have taken bigger jumps and tried 540 or 550, but this meet was supposed to be all about hitting that 700# squat…

I will think about taking tribulus or DAA. I’m already taking chelated zinc. I’m not having any ED symptoms, but my lack of sex drive is a little bit concerning. At least my energy is decent and I’m not having any brain fog, nor am I having any issues with testicular atrophy.