T Nation


I hope that each of you was able to see the spontaneous eruptions of joy taking place all over Iraq. Each of you should realize the significance of these demonstrations. These people had been under the heel of a brutual dictator for twenty years. It takes courage to demonstrate. Any previous demonstrations would have ended in torture and death. These good people trust the Americans and are desperate for freedom.
My sincerest wish is that all of the anti-Americans, democrats, anarchists, jealous europeans, and other fools who still oppose this war, were able to watch these demonstrations. I also hope that you caught the fact that there is a new currency on the Iraqi street. The bills have a picture of George W. Bush on them. God Bless the United States of America and W. in particular.

Wow, they’re demonstrating in Iraq. There are 10x as many people demonstrating in the rest of the world & nobody seems to be listening to them.

“I’m 49, but I never lived a single day,” said Yusuf Abed Kazim, a Baghdad imam who was pounding the statue’s pedestal. “Only now will I start living. That Saddam Hussein is a murderer and a criminal.”–Foxnews.com

If our government really gave a shit about the fate of the Kurds,
we would have invaded Turkey years ago. If the US cared about
human rights, we wouldn’t have supported Pol Pot, Suharto, Pinochet,
Montt, and too many others to name. We wouldn’t run the School of the
Americas which has produced torturers and murderers and unleahsed
them on the third world. If the US cared about chemical and biological
weapons, we wouldn’t have the world’s largest stockpile of the very
agents that our noble goverment says are so inhuman.

I’m sure that in 91, or even a matter of a couple of months ago you were
calling for the carpet bombing of Iraq. Before the war I had someone in my
office saying we should start napalming their schools and hospitals. That
same person now purports to be happy becasue these people are “free”.
The same people he was saying we should nuke, he suddenly swells
with pride at their liberation. Amazing.

I still disagree with this war. I think every soldier has died in the name of oil
(regardless of how those on the right are tired of hearing it), I think
you may feel differently once we get the bill for this war and the occupation
(or whatever euphamism they will think of) that will be sure to follow. This
war is not about and never was about the liberation of the Iraqi people.
This is a war of self interest, this liberation is a side effect and a political
boon for those in the administration.

But hey. What do us liberals know? The price of gas is already falling.

Every war is about self interest. You think Lincoln wanted to free the slaves?
It doesn’t deter from the fact that Saddem Hussein is a murdering bastard who will no longer torment his people.

Where to begin…lets start with your argument that if “If the US cared about
human rights, we wouldn’t have supported Pol Pot, Suharto, Pinochet,
Montt, and too many others to name.” In America we have these things called elections, and last time I checked George W. Bush’s adminstration was not in place when these dictators were in power. Do you believe since mistakes were made in the past that we are now not allowed to prevent human right violations?? That is a stellar arguement. Oh by the way Jimmyy Carter was President for much of the time that Pol Pot and the Khamer Rouge blanketed the Cambodia countryside with the blood of the innocent. Was he a democrat?? He was also in office during the brutal early years of Pinochet in Chile(1973-1990). I don’t just fault jimmy carter I fault reagan, ford, and even Senior Bush, but again this has no bearing on our current situation with Iraq.
As to your co-worker…he is an idiot. Do you base your opinions on the moronic rhetoric one sick person spits out, I hope not. I can show you anti-war protestors resorting to violence during demonstrations, can anyone else see the irony in that.
I posted several times how this war is not about oil, and also how it is not merely done to liberate the people of Iraq, you can read my earlier posts if you like.

Scall, don’t bother arguing with that idiot. He hasn’t had an original thought since his father body-slammed him on the delivery room floor. What he posted was a cut and pasted email he received that has been going around to the lefties. If we totally ignore people like him, Say and a handful of others, whose ONLY mission is to cause controversy, they will eventually go away. People who are legitmately against the war like BabyDoll, I can understand and respect their opinion. Miscreants, who only want to rile people, should not be allowed to steal time from your life.

Good call

Always the voice of reason AR.

And just to head off the usual “What you saw on TV was manipulated by the Western Media argle bargle burgle blather” that’s sure to come up: I live in Japan, watch Japanese TV (in Japanese), and they showed the same thing.

And yes, AR has spoken the truth. I know that I’ll never respond to another Say post again. Good luck with your training and nutrition, cocksucker - assuming that you actually have any interest in either…

I found the demonstrations rather amusing. First of all, all of these “spontaneous eruptions of joy” were quite small in magnitude relative to the population densities of the areas in which they were occuring. When the cameras zoomed out, it was evident that there was only a small densley packed group of demonstrators. Furthermore, there were more photographers than actual protesters. Also, with the exception of a few people in each group, most of the crowd members looked somewhat indiferent as if they were more interested in just watching the jackasses dance around. Also the extended video sort of shows these mini-rioters constantly looking back at the cameramen, as if they son’t quite know what to do next. Maybe its been too long… I think the media is so desperate for some “defining moment” in this conflict that they’re kinda overplaying everything. They seem to be trying to draw visual parallels with the fall of communism or the fall of Milosevic, but in those cases, there were hundreds of thousands of people in the streets, this is hardly the case at this point. Perhaps there will be large scale anti-saddam demonstrations at a later point, but for now, most appears to be just the occasional photo-op, covering for the real fun (and curiously underreported by CNN) in breakdowns in order, LOOTING. Depsite foriegn reports indicating quite a bit of this, domestic media seems to want to ignore this ever-so-fun way of procuring a new TV despite the fact that there are probably more people engaged in it at this point than actual anti-saddam demonstrations (if history of this sort of thing is anything to go by). The fun thing about it --for the looter-- is that you can lump your looting and “anti-government protesting” all in to one, when it suits you.
I find the media spin amusing, this isn’t “pro-american propaganda” or anything like that, rather the media outlets just want to be able to sell this as a great turning point in history, or some such shit.

Perhaps we will see some real demonstrations yet, but as of this writing, I’m amused more than impressed.

Wow! It’s been 11 days of R&R(I knew you’d luv the military lingo) in South beach, Miami and I really can say that I missed you guys. To u.s.=good guys: I bet you thought you had me, huh? Well, no such luck! I can see the old thread we were debating on is gone so all I can suggest is that we continue the debate on WACO through private messages or maybe I’ll start a thread with that as the topic, sound fun?

As for the “big celebration” I’ll defer to E McKee’s post for now.

To Say: forgive them for they know not what they do.

To scall144: First I want to give you a big shout out since your my number one fan.
Okay so W wasn’t president when the atrocities mentioned by Jinx Remover were committed but, you conveinently leave out the fact that some of his administration were behind the scenes of power during those atrocities.
By the way, I love how you call invasions of other countries and murdering of innocents - mistakes. As if the catalyst for the many atrocities committed by the u.s. government are never planned out…they just sorta happen.
Of course w is not Kennedy, Johnson, Reagan…etc. However, considering the recent history of our country and the unjust wars(declared and undeclared) it has waged one would have to be blind not to see a pattern of corruption and human rights abuses committed in the name of “freedom”.
I can bet that the u.s. has killed more Iraqis than Saddam could conjure up in a wet dream. Add up all the civilans from both Gulf Wars and the deaths by starvation caused by u.s.sanctions and there we have a real human rights violation.
I leave you all with a quote by a man who used to edit that old rag National Review.
The u.s. has killed more people outside it’s borders than anyone else…or am I missing something? - Joesph Sobran


If you are actually so stupid and elitist to believe that the thousands of Iraqi people celebrating the invasion of their own country does not supercede the beliefs of those protesting the war, then you are so biased and brainwashed against intelligent thought that you should try giving it up. I have tried to avoid attacks against people, but in your case:


Idiot, eh? Slammed me on the delivery room floor, huh? Good arguments
both. I find it difficult to counter such finely articulated sentiments. First
of all, in your mind you may have a point about Bush not being in power
when we supported earlier regimes of terror. However, many in his current
administration were (including a few people that many people think have
more a say in the way the government is run than he does). To say that
we have turned over a new leaf is completely ridiculous. I assume that you
agree with me in terms of support for all past undemocratic regimes was
wrong because that’s what it sounds like. Since you have implied disagreement
with those former administrations for their support of said regimes, can you
now defend the relations we keep with the countries I list below?

And BTW, argument the Jimmy Carter supported so and so means nothing to me.
Did I somehow EXCLUDE him because he is a democrat? No. My indictment
was sweeping of the US government and it’s foreign policy, regardless of
party lines. This includes EVERYONE.

We love dictators. We love Pervez Musharraf, a dictator who seized power
in a military coup. Last year Venezuela’s democratically elected president
was overthrown for a couple of days and the Dubya administration could barely
contain their glee. Saudi Arabia and China are two countries that we
need to keep happy, the Saudis for oil and China for trade, regardless of their
atoricious human rights records and anti-democratic principles. Why have
we not invaded Zimbabwe? Kazakhstan? Israel, for God’s sake! Indonesia!
There’s a hotbed for democratic principles! Hey, who won the last election in
Jordan? How about we all list our favorite Afghan warlords! Or have we forgotten
about them too? Will we “liberate” the Palestinians? We’ll liberate them allright,
but not in the way I’m thinking. You can just pick an African country. Why aren’t
we there with our lofty ideals of democracy? Because there is no loftier ideal than that
of free market enterprise. Period. As long as your government is open to US
foreign investment, that’s all that matters.

I would loooove to hear how you think this war is neither about oil OR the
ridiculous argument that it is for Iraqi liberation. Comabtting terrorism? Please.
Has anyone noticed how this war started as a war to disarm Saddam, but
since they have found nothing to support their claims, now they say it’s
a war of liberation. Have you somehow forgotten? I’m too lazy to look for
your other posts so sum it for me. Use small words and speak slowly. It’s
not about liberation, oil, weapons, and it seems a really silly way to get Pete
Rose into the Hall, so what then?

As far as the demonstrations, I seem to remember a simliar occurence in
Panama. The pictures of people celebrating in the streets in the US media,
but the reality was THOUSANDS of innocent civilians were deliberatley
targetted and killed and the voice that opposed the invasion was never heard
even though it was the voice of the majority.

If you can make a good argument and prove I’m full of shit, then prove it with
your arguments, not with personal insults and boorish jibes at my
character. Miscreant indeed.

The blind leading the blind. If you can watch that demonstration and not believe we did the right thing, you are fools. The complaint I keep hearing is all the lemmings repeating what their commie masters tell them to think. Any understanding about economics would let you know that this will give a nasty blow to the oil companies. You think they want low prices for oil? Why in the hell would they want that? I keep asking these questions, but people keep giving me bogus links to communist sites, or links to sites that are actually more anti-American then Al Jazeera. People are leaving reality to keep their claims after these demonstrations. Not small demonstrations, but massive demonstrations. I watched it live, and I heard those cheers that went up when the flag covered Saddam’s face, and an equal amount when they lifted the Iraqi flag on Saddam’s statue.

And this complaint that inspectors weren’t given enough time when they were there for months, and found precursors to mustard gas, and in less then a month we are supposed to find everything. Interestingly we just found warheads designed to carry chemical weapons.

This man is evil, yet it is Bush that people call evil. Saddam invaded Kuwait to take it’s oil, and we are blamed for going to war for oil. If we wanted the oil we would have taken it after the first Gulf war. And yet nobody tells me why we didn’t take it then. I keep answering questions and disputing myths and giving good links to accurate information, and people still don’t get it. People keep saying they are not anti-American, and yet I hear hate speech after hate speech over and over, and then complain that we are promoting hate speech because we want to stop a person who has committed genocide.

And if everyone can explain why it is so hard to stay on subject? These statements like, “But what about Nicklesteen in 1462? Why didn’t we care about that?” I am sorry but this is a bs form of argument designed to add completely separate situations to bolster an argument that cannot be supported by facts. If you have the facts, then present them.

Give these links from accurate sources, and not from the hate America sites. Personally I don’t think they exist. If there is no proof for your statement then I consider that you have made it up. And if you link to a bs site like whatreallyhappened.com which didn’t even post a link to the cheering Iraqi’s in Baghdad, but was willing to connect to a forum message giving the idea it was a valid news source.

I don’t think you can do it. I haven’t seen it done yet.

To Zepplin,

Nice to meet you and if you want to debate lets go ahead. First off I hope your not a gambling man zepplin cause your statement  "I can bet that the u.s. has killed more Iraqis than Saddam could conjure up in a wet dream. Add up all the civilans from both Gulf Wars and the deaths by starvation caused by u.s.sanctions and there we have a real human rights violation." Is well simply wrong. YOu have a calculator handy?? In the Sha'i muslim uprising the Iraqi government massacred over 250,000 thousand,you see the Sha'i were not allowed to pray on friday, or have funeral processions, when they protested Saddam slaughtered them(that is called religious persecution)In 1987-88 Human Rights watch estimates that between 50,000-100,000 kurds were gased and over 2,000 kurdish villages destroyed. Internal Iraqi documents also estimate an additional 30,000 Iraqis and Iranians were killed by the regime between 1983-1988. 

Posted this in another thread, but there are more liberals over here, so I’m moving it…

Those of you with liberal tendencies truly amaze me. Yeah, “our media shows us only what we want to see” Are you kidding me?! This is the same media that bitched about the war strategy from the very beginning! The same liberal-leaning media that is anti-war and still can’t admit that getting rid of the murderous dictator was a great thing.

Does that make sense? The media, with the exception of Fox News, can’t stand to show the parades of people celebrating, people throwing there shoes at the statue of saddam. They’re bitter and hateful that the despised President Bush waged a successful campaign to oust an asshole.

Our military from top to bottom was outstanding in their performance. We kicked their asses, got rids of the oppressors, and gave the Iraqi people their freedom. Where the hell is your patriotism?!

People are tasting freedom for the first time ever!

Granted, there are obviously Iraqis (and liberals) who didn’t want change. But does anyone really think that living in total fear of a murderous tyrant is a preferable way of life?

Sorry for, that was only part of my post… “Over the past five years, 400,000 Iraqi children under the age of five died of malnutrition and disease, preventively, but died because of the nature of the regime under which they are living.” (Prime Minister Tony Blair, March 27, 2003) o Under the oil-for-food program, the international community sought to make available to the Iraqi people adequate supplies of food and medicine, but the regime blocked sufficient access for international workers to ensure proper distribution of these supplies. o Since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces have discovered military warehouses filled with food supplies meant for the Iraqi people that had been diverted by Iraqi military forces." I think those deaths are on Saddams hands not the US governments. Further more Saddams regime has refused human rights inspectors to enter his nation from 1992-2002, wonder what went on during those 10yrs, I am sure it was much like a palm springs resort, much like the Nazi death camps never had gas chambers right, those were Saunas. In the gulf war an estimated 100,000 thousand Iraqi soldiers died (individuals who actually thought Saddam Huessein was a good guy) but this number is inflated by most accounts, while 35,000 civilian deaths occured.
Now onto the serious side, do I enjoy waying the lives of those 35,000 innocents against the countless numbers Saddam has killed…no I hate it. I am sure the individuals who have to do it for real hate it even more, if they don;t they are sick. If you can tell me another way to stop Saddam great, or better yet tell our government officials, but trust me there is no other way.
Your next point about there being atrocities commited all over the world and why we are not taking action…I don;t know why we aren;t. Hopefully we will, we need to go into Africa, central america, and arab and asian nations that commit genocide, or oppress women or any other human rights violations. The argument that we can’t police the world doesn’t work, would you sit by and watch a man get beating in front of you own eyes, I hope not. This is just merely on a larger scale. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. — Edmund Burke 1729


It’s simple economics. When you control the supply of a resource you also
control it’s output. You secure a greater supply and thusly you secure greater control
of the market. Seems pretty simple to me. That’s the preimse behind the
legal illegitamacy of monopolies. Not to say we seek a monopoly on the
world’s oil supply (but my how the hawks must lust after that idea), but
the principle is the same.

Also. The invasion of Kuwait was not seen as adequate enough reason to
invade Baghdad. Remeber that Iraq invaded Kuwait and our priority was
to kick him out of Kuwait and limit his military capability, not necessarily
to displace the Iraqi power structure. The mission was complete in '91.

Furthermore, the inspectors themselves were asking for an additional six
months to carry out their process. Iraq was admittedly being a bit disingenuous
but was beginning to make concessions in the weeks leading up to the US’s
attack. It seemed an interesting point in time to say “enough is enough”. In fact
this purported cooperation only fueled the war drums in Washington as they must
have sensed the window was closing. You need an excuse to invade someone
after all.

As far as why the US is not helping out the many other oppressed masses in the
world, and what’s more, giving AID and TRAINING to the very regimes that keep them
under a boot I DO know. It’s either Ockham’s Razor or Hanlon’s:

All things being equal, the simplest explanation is probably the right one,
OR, never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

So our government is either evil or stupid, take your pick. I’ll have trouble
refuting either one.

As a final note I will say that there is no question that Saddam is an evil
man. A scourge upon humanity and all the rest of the propaganda is right in
many cases concerning Saddam. But this didn’t start occuring the night he
invaded Kuwait. He was evil and oppressive sine he first took a position of power.
Which begs the question, why would we EVER support such a man? If we are this
stalwart of freedom and democracy how could we have EVER not seen this man
for what he was? My feeling is that we knew damn well and as long as he served
a purpose, we kept him around. I have a feeling I’m not alone in this opinion.

Argue all you want…we kicked ass and didn’t bother taking names. Seeing the joy on those peoples faces makes it worth it to me. Having pretty close second hand experience with oppresive regimes, I can tell say that most people in the free world couldn’t understand what freedom really means. Especially when they bad mouth the new found freedom of an oppressed people. I double-dog dare any motherfucker to go tell one of those newly freed Iraqi’s that they shouldn’t be free because they don’t aggree with Bush’s agenda.
All I know is if past world leaders had balls we could have avoided people like Hitler, Stalin and Castro. Hitting them before they become to powerful. God bless the freedom of Iraq and the soldiers who died to give it to them. It was not in vein.