T Nation

Understanding the Testosterone/Estrogen Ratio

In an old thread titled “Very High Estrogen But I Feel Great”, @alldayeveryday posted the “commonly discussed” T/E Ratio calculation. Rather than bump a 6 year old thread, I will start new.

And yes, it is a rambling thread, as it presents multiple ways to view the same thing. Yet, I don’t know which one is correct – or whether they are all correct.

I have also read about the ratio method that was pasted above, yet I have never found a legitimate medical source to confirm the methodology.

I found one online calculator that presents the T/E ratio in a completely different fashion … and makes the statement that both numbers must be the same units to perform the calculation:

before the calculation of testosterone to estradiol ratio, both hormone concentrations need to be expressed in the same units,

Right now, I have pseudo high Estrogen and feel fantastic. When I began my journey, I had Estrogen “not measurable”.

If I use the commonly discussed method on these boards, my ratio is 20 and I’m in range.

When I use the online calculator, I’m at 194 and I have NO CLUE what that means.

I found another reference on a medical journal that confuses me further. I don’t know what is meant – 5% of what??

The Total Testosterone:Estradiol ratio needs to be kept below 5%.

I also found an interesting article that lends some credence to what I feel.

https://www.renalandurologynews.com/home/departments/mens-health-update/hypogonadism/high-estradiol-boosts-libido-in-men-on-testosterone-therapy/

In another thread, a poster quoted Nelson Vergel.

In my instance, my ultimate range using this method is: 72-102

For this calculation, I was using TT of 1435 ng/dL, and 69.8 pg/ml.

Do any of you know any posted medical studies on T/E ratios?

I don’t think it is so much about the particular numbers. Maybe best to go off of any symptoms.

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I finally found an article with “numbers”

Testosterone to estrogen ratio:
Dr. Lee indicated that in his opinion saliva hormone testing is more reliable than blood tests (Ref. 1). One of the advantages of doing saliva hormone tests of estrogen and testosterone is that you can calculate directly the ratios of these two hormones. In hormonally normal younger males the testosterone to estrogen ratio is larger than 20 – 40 (Ref.2). The testosterone to estrogen ratio in obese men is typically less than 20 meaning it is too low. But lean men in andropause produce too little testosterone and their testosterone to estrogen ratio is also less than 20, because they may still have enough estrogen in their system from aromatase in the fatty tissue, but they are lacking testosterone due to a lack of its production in the testicles (Ref. 1 and 2).

When a man in andropause is given bioidentical hormone replacement with a testosterone gel or bioidentical testosterone cream this is absorbed into the blood and body tissues and then partially metabolized into a small amount of estrogen. This can be seen when saliva hormone tests are done; a higher level of testosterone is detected and much lower estrogen level so that the testosterone to estrogen ratio is now 20 to 40 or higher

I have no studies to post just my own experiences after being on TRT for just over 5 years and doing a lot of experiments and blood testing on myself. I have used NV’s formula when blasting and it has kept the gyno away and I felt pretty good however it does not prevent my ED from getting worse when my TT is over 2000.
While on TRT (80-100mg/wk TT750 trough FT 33 top of range 18) thru many experiment I have found my sweet spot for E2 is 24-27 if my E2 goes over 35 I develop libido and ED issues. YMMV

Correct me if I am wrong, but using NV system as you said, your E should be at 37.5 to 53; yet your sweet spot is 24-27, and 35 creates problems for you.

Even if you use the other method mentioned, you wouldn’t fall into the suggested range.

Doesn’t this contradict both methods? I am only pointing this out because I find it confusing – especially as good as I feel now with high estrogen. Yet, my “high estrogen” is in “range” with these methods.

I use NV formula when blasting not while on TRT. Thru experimenting over the last 5 years I found my E2 and TT sweet spots. I don’t use anyones formula while on TRT just lots of lvl changes and blood test. If my E2 goes over 35 my dick quits working. Even cialas will not help me keep blood in to hold the erection.

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I have heard close to 1:1 being a good ratio. FREE T must be used instead of Total T.

That is interesting and much closer to my numbers when at my TRT dose. When my TT is 750 peak my Free T is around 20 (labcorp ranges 18 is top) and when I feel the best my E2 is 24-27 That is pretty close to 1:1

Logically it seems that a ratio using free t should be much more useful. If one had tt of 800 and ft of 10, they will feel miserable with an e2 in the 30-40 range, even though they fit in the tt:e2 ratio. Probably going to not feel well at ft of 10 anyways, but you get my point.

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https://bmcneurosci.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2202-13-95Rat study

This is an interesting enough read, even if it is on rats and not people.
From that study:
Gonadectomy resulted in decreased aromatase mRNA, responsible for converting T to E, in the midbrain, and this reduction was not reversed by replacement of any sex steroid. Thus, removing the male gonads appears to bias the midbrain toward more limited estradiol synthesis.

TT - 761 ng/dL
E2 - 70 pg/mL

Ratio 102.6

is that right ?

Depends on which formula you believe it …

The first (761/70) is 10.87 which means E is too high for that T. (range 20-40)

The second one says that your correct range should be between 38-54

The third one (online ratio calculator) is 102.6 like you said, but I don’t understand how this calculator works with my numbers either.

I would tend to believe this.

@straff How do you feel at these numbers?

I’ve had TT/E2 ratios in the 30s and down to like 14.

I always feel better with it lower. Generally means e2 is higher.

for record, i´m 40, still natural (for now), on this ratio lvl’s i use to fell really good. horny, accurate mind, well being.
But some times cause of my night shift job, and probably age, i fell the T lvls down fluctuate, and the brain fog and emotional kick’s hard.
for example on T 468 / E2 51 (October 2018) felt really bad on that lvl’s

The level were you felt really bad yields a ratio of 9.18.

So to summarize, you felt pretty good at a ratio of 10.87, but like shit at a ratio of 9.18.

This tends to further give credence to the fact that your E2 is too high (and by comparison this means your Total T is too low). Makes me wonder how much better you would feel at a ratio closer to 15?

One other thing to note is that as your Total T falls, your E2 / TT ratio seems to get more out of whack. Depending on where your Free T falls into this equation, I’d put money on a very good life for you at around 800 TT with E2 at ~50.

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Good post bmbrady77.

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thnx for the post . by the way on 761/70 my free T was 34.1
shbg 31.5

Could not agree more.

Already try Aromasin, but didn’t work. Ill try invest on liver cleanse and reduce body fat (17% 104 kg now)
Probably in a short future (next year) , after kids, start on transdermic scrotum cream or daily sub q
to go around that lvls you said, if i could not reach naturally.