T Nation

Under 22

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Artem wrote:
Alex Lesukov
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=O9akWi8qddw

Is he cutting in that video? If not, how do people stay that damn lean while bulking? I mean, I’m sure it’s easier if you count calories and only eat a few hundred over maintenance, but I’d imagine that anybody trying to make gains just eats all they can. That’s what I do, at least.

I probably eat like 5-6k a day and I’m getting great results, but I’m nowhere near as lean as some of these guys that aren’t even cutting.

edit:
Also, does anybody know that guy’s measurements, or height/weight, at least?

That’s how it goes for guys with elite genetics. Not everyon can be a bodybuilder, it may suck hear that, but it’s absolutely true.

The combination of 99th percentile genetics, anabolics, hGH, and top level training and nutrition coaches separates the average guy’s hard work and this guys hard work. [/quote]
That’s the thing, I think I have what it takes to build the muscle, but I’ve never even seen more than a 4 pack on myself. Does that mean I won’t be able to get lean enough to compete seriously, or will I just need to diet for longer? I’m afraid to lose muscles on a really long diet.

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Artem wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Artem wrote:
Are there any well-known 16-17 year old bodybuilders, with respectable size? At least like 190 stage weight? All the ones I see are like 160 tops on stage and look tiny.

not really, at least not that i know of. id imagine most kids dont start training at an early enough age even w/ drugs to be prime by such a young age. the amazing thing about being big by 18 or 19 is that its so young.

Castleberry and Clark have only been training a few years. i cant say for Alex though
If one were to start competing and winning teen shows at 19 (cutoff for teen shows, yes?), would there be money involved, or is it just for novelty at that level?

depending on the stature of the competition im sure there is money involved.
[/quote]

NO MONEY

there isn’t even money in the adult classes.

The only way to make money is to win pro shows, get supplement contracts, get model deals, or in Kai Greene and other bodybuilders case pose for the ‘muscle worshippers’

or sell drugs…

DG

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
these guys dont have nutrition coaches or top level training.

Aaron’s workouts are posted here and most people think theyre rediculous because he does leg presses for a fucking hour and a half or someshit.

Brad Castleberry trains with a bunch of kids who dont even look like they lift.

supposedly Castleberry is drugfree, according to Dante, but that doesnt mean its true just cause an internet cult leader says so. either that kid is juiced or hes a walking argument for stem-cell research.[/quote]

I’d probably call dante a liar here, altho I’d like to know when Dante said that as Castleberry may have been natty up until the last couple years…but thats just from what I see in his pics/lifts…that kind of stuff doesn’t happen naturally…he might be a 1:1000000000000000000000000000000000000000 genetic freak or the odds are probably better that he’s been under the needle.

I’m not judging as I have no probs partaking in the pins and pills lol

ARTEM- you don’t have to have SPECTACULAR genetics to get a pro card, you do need some sort of spectacular genetics to win major shows like the O, Arnold, etc.

Ever hear that gay saying ‘shoot for the moon and if you miss you land among the stars’ Try and build the best physique you can and start competing…even if you don’t get a pro card someday then I’d bet you still build up one damn impressive physique!

DG

[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
these guys dont have nutrition coaches or top level training.

Aaron’s workouts are posted here and most people think theyre rediculous because he does leg presses for a fucking hour and a half or someshit.

Brad Castleberry trains with a bunch of kids who dont even look like they lift.

supposedly Castleberry is drugfree, according to Dante, but that doesnt mean its true just cause an internet cult leader says so. either that kid is juiced or hes a walking argument for stem-cell research.

I’d probably call dante a liar here, altho I’d like to know when Dante said that as Castleberry may have been natty up until the last couple years…but thats just from what I see in his pics/lifts…that kind of stuff doesn’t happen naturally…he might be a 1:1000000000000000000000000000000000000000 genetic freak or the odds are probably better that he’s been under the needle. [/quote] Even so, consider most elite-genetics guys on gear vs. him, compare strength vs size etc.

I say genetics that favor strength gain. He also doesn’t exactly look like someone (as far as that being an identifiable look) who uses outrageous amounts of test, now, does he?

[quote]

I’m not judging as I have no probs partaking in the pins and pills lol

ARTEM- you don’t have to have SPECTACULAR genetics to get a pro card, you do need some sort of spectacular genetics to win major shows like the O, Arnold, etc.
[/quote] Indeed. You won’t get into the O unless you have some actual bodybuilder-genetics, so to speak.
The O and Arnold and the guys competing in those get more coverage than most of the other stuff, so people are used to seeing those guys…
Make no mistake, they out-genetic each and every one of us and shot past their peers and gym-buddies in their early days without even trying.

[quote]
Ever hear that gay saying ‘shoot for the moon and if you miss you land among the stars’ Try and build the best physique you can and start competing…even if you don’t get a pro card someday then I’d bet you still build up one damn impressive physique!

DG[/quote]

Sure. But the days where guys with so-so genetics could get to the top (or near) are dead and gone.

No amount of drug-usage will change that.

Edit: Goddamn spelling.

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
crod266 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
Artem wrote:
Alex Lesukov
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=O9akWi8qddw

Is he cutting in that video? If not, how do people stay that damn lean while bulking? I mean, I’m sure it’s easier if you count calories and only eat a few hundred over maintenance, but I’d imagine that anybody trying to make gains just eats all they can. That’s what I do, at least.

I probably eat like 5-6k a day and I’m getting great results, but I’m nowhere near as lean as some of these guys that aren’t even cutting.

edit:
Also, does anybody know that guy’s measurements, or height/weight, at least?

That’s how it goes for guys with elite genetics. Not everyon can be a bodybuilder, it may suck hear that, but it’s absolutely true.

The combination of 99th percentile genetics, anabolics, hGH, and top level training and nutrition coaches separates the average guy’s hard work and this guys hard work.

ya genetics deff come into play, but i personally think that someone who has avg genetics or maybe a little above can still make it in the bodybuilder world he just has to put much more time and dedication in before he becomes that size than someone has has elite genetics like alex. So like maybe alex becomes pro at 25(just an example) it might take someone without those genetics till 35 before he looks like that.

theres definately pro competitors who didnt have the best genetics growing up. some people have to work harder than others but no one is born looking like a bodybuilder, have you seen Pwrbar boy’s before pictures? he was a 130 pound skateboarder and now look at em.

[/quote] And he shot past almost everyone else here with ease, didn’t he?
You may be able to tell how well some untrained guy is suited for bbing if he’s a samoan, but not in the case of most other people.

He’s also far from the genetic elite, still… [quote]

and even if you dont have super-human genetics does that mean youre just going to quit? you could have the best BBing genetics in the world and never do shit w/ the sport or you could so-so genes and maybe not win the Olympia but that doesnt mean you cant be the buffest dude on the beach or the strongest guy at the gym.
[/quote]

That’s true.

i wouldnt say Aaron used ease. in his thread he details that he worked out for 2 hours a day and went to the gym instead of doing other activities so like when his friends were partying, he was at the gym. i cant tell you whether or not thats true either, a lot of people like to paint themselves as the hero who had to struggle to get to where they are, regardless. but you cant get big without working at it in one way or another. no one lifts once a week and is big, no one does rec. drugs all day and is big. theres a certain standard you have to adhere to no matter how good your genetics are.

and i dont care if TC said he saw 2 bodybuilders repping 600 pound deadlifts with rounded backs who only ate ice cream once a day.

i also think you can tell how good some people are for packing on size based on certain genetic features. if the kid already has a developed body and doesnt do anything, he could probaly get a lot bigger if he tried, if hes strong as shit and doesnt train he could probaly get stronger if he tried.

but like i siad just cause u dont display a certain trait doesnt mean you cant have it later. theres actually a scientific fact that people posess certain genes that may never be activated without some kind of enviormental stimulus, its called epigenesis.

I think getting caught up in the genetics debate just dooms you for failure. You can’t change them (at least not yet lol), so don’t dwell on it.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
these guys dont have nutrition coaches or top level training.

Aaron’s workouts are posted here and most people think theyre rediculous because he does leg presses for a fucking hour and a half or someshit.

Brad Castleberry trains with a bunch of kids who dont even look like they lift.

supposedly Castleberry is drugfree, according to Dante, but that doesnt mean its true just cause an internet cult leader says so. either that kid is juiced or hes a walking argument for stem-cell research.

I’d probably call dante a liar here, altho I’d like to know when Dante said that as Castleberry may have been natty up until the last couple years…but thats just from what I see in his pics/lifts…that kind of stuff doesn’t happen naturally…he might be a 1:1000000000000000000000000000000000000000 genetic freak or the odds are probably better that he’s been under the needle. Even so, consider most elite-genetics guys on gear vs. him, compare strength vs size etc.

I say genetics that favor strength gain. He also doesn’t exactly look like someone (as far as that being an identifiable look) who uses outrageous amounts of test, now, does he?

I’m not judging as I have no probs partaking in the pins and pills lol

ARTEM- you don’t have to have SPECTACULAR genetics to get a pro card, you do need some sort of spectacular genetics to win major shows like the O, Arnold, etc.
Indeed. You won’t get into the O unless you have some actual bodybuilder-genetics, so to speak.
The O and Arnold and the guys competing in those get more coverage than most of the other stuff, so people are used to seeing those guys…
Make no mistake, they out-genetic each and every one of us and shot past their peers and gym-buddies in their early days without even trying.

Ever hear that gay saying ‘shoot for the moon and if you miss you land among the stars’ Try and build the best physique you can and start competing…even if you don’t get a pro card someday then I’d bet you still build up one damn impressive physique!

DG

Sure. But the days where guys with so-so genetics could get to the top (or near) are dead and gone.

No amount of drug-usage will change that.

Edit: Goddamn spelling.
[/quote]

Yeah, it seems the general consensus is that you can tell within the first year or so of training if you’ve got the genetics to be the best of the best bodybuilders on the planet, no?

I always thought this one pic was impressive.

Kid looks like he’s wearing football pads.

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
these guys dont have nutrition coaches or top level training.

Aaron’s workouts are posted here and most people think theyre rediculous because he does leg presses for a fucking hour and a half or someshit.

Brad Castleberry trains with a bunch of kids who dont even look like they lift.

supposedly Castleberry is drugfree, according to Dante, but that doesnt mean its true just cause an internet cult leader says so. either that kid is juiced or hes a walking argument for stem-cell research.

I’d probably call dante a liar here, altho I’d like to know when Dante said that as Castleberry may have been natty up until the last couple years…but thats just from what I see in his pics/lifts…that kind of stuff doesn’t happen naturally…he might be a 1:1000000000000000000000000000000000000000 genetic freak or the odds are probably better that he’s been under the needle. Even so, consider most elite-genetics guys on gear vs. him, compare strength vs size etc.

I say genetics that favor strength gain. He also doesn’t exactly look like someone (as far as that being an identifiable look) who uses outrageous amounts of test, now, does he?

I’m not judging as I have no probs partaking in the pins and pills lol

ARTEM- you don’t have to have SPECTACULAR genetics to get a pro card, you do need some sort of spectacular genetics to win major shows like the O, Arnold, etc.
Indeed. You won’t get into the O unless you have some actual bodybuilder-genetics, so to speak.
The O and Arnold and the guys competing in those get more coverage than most of the other stuff, so people are used to seeing those guys…
Make no mistake, they out-genetic each and every one of us and shot past their peers and gym-buddies in their early days without even trying.

Ever hear that gay saying ‘shoot for the moon and if you miss you land among the stars’ Try and build the best physique you can and start competing…even if you don’t get a pro card someday then I’d bet you still build up one damn impressive physique!

DG

Sure. But the days where guys with so-so genetics could get to the top (or near) are dead and gone.

No amount of drug-usage will change that.

Edit: Goddamn spelling.

Yeah, it seems the general consensus is that you can tell within the first year or so of training if you’ve got the genetics to be the best of the best bodybuilders on the planet, no?[/quote]

not at all…
I’ve been lifting seriously for more than a year and have not stalled once. I had a period when I didn’t record any progress and just did a bunch of sets to failure every workout, and put on about 20lbs during that period, but I record all progress now and still get stronger every single workout.

I can definitely tell that I put on more mass easily, but I don’t know when I’ll stall and how I’ll look when I do. That’s probably when you start to get an idea.

You do learn how hard you can train without overstraining early on, though. I’ve never “overtrained,” so I can’t say what it would feel like, but my workouts are usually 2-2.5 hours and a lot of people say that they would o"vertrain" if they did that. It works great for me, so whatever…

[quote]LUEshi wrote:
I always thought this one pic was impressive.

Kid looks like he’s wearing football pads.[/quote]

Maybe it’s the angle, but his forearms look really out of proportion in that pic.

I think its interesting about this cassleberry guy though. In those clips he really doesn’t look all that big, but his strength is crazy. I’m impressed

[quote]Artem wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote
That’s the thing, I think I have what it takes to build the muscle, but I’ve never even seen more than a 4 pack on myself. Does that mean I won’t be able to get lean enough to compete seriously, or will I just need to diet for longer? I’m afraid to lose muscles on a really long diet.
[/quote]

I have no idea. But I will say that it means that you probably wont look like a pro by the time you are 20. If you plan to stay natural for the rest of your training career it would be best not to compare yourself to guys on drugs. Take training advice from them; sure. Nutrition advice; sure, to an extent (you know your body best). But anabolics put people in a completely different ballpark when it comes to max potential.

As far as getting lean enough. Top naturals get pretty shredded. Maybe no striated glutes, unless they have good genetics for that, but you can still get very lean if you know how to diet. How much muscle you retain while dieting is going to come down to how good your body is at retaining muscle in a caloric deficit.

Bottom line
If you plan to stay natural compare yourself to those guys. If you plan to use drugs compare yourself to those guys when you start using.

You are young. I am not condoning drug use of ANY KIND until you are mentally and physically prepared.

Live:
I was not saying that guys with average genetics should not persue their goals. I was saying that guys with top level genetics will be able to peak much earlier than guys without top genetics, that’s all. Lesukov obviously has stellar genetics for bodybuilding. If he never lifted weights I’d bet he’d still look much better than your average guy who also doesn’t lift weights (at a mature age of course, not as a teen). Aaron Clark has good genetics too (maybe not in his upper back/lats but sure as hell in his legs and arms JMO).

Great genetics + hard work + intelligent drug use = world class physique. Average genetics + hard work + intelligent drug use = Better than average physique. No argument there.

edit

[quote]Artem wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
these guys dont have nutrition coaches or top level training.

Aaron’s workouts are posted here and most people think theyre rediculous because he does leg presses for a fucking hour and a half or someshit.

Brad Castleberry trains with a bunch of kids who dont even look like they lift.

supposedly Castleberry is drugfree, according to Dante, but that doesnt mean its true just cause an internet cult leader says so. either that kid is juiced or hes a walking argument for stem-cell research.

I’d probably call dante a liar here, altho I’d like to know when Dante said that as Castleberry may have been natty up until the last couple years…but thats just from what I see in his pics/lifts…that kind of stuff doesn’t happen naturally…he might be a 1:1000000000000000000000000000000000000000 genetic freak or the odds are probably better that he’s been under the needle. Even so, consider most elite-genetics guys on gear vs. him, compare strength vs size etc.

I say genetics that favor strength gain. He also doesn’t exactly look like someone (as far as that being an identifiable look) who uses outrageous amounts of test, now, does he?

I’m not judging as I have no probs partaking in the pins and pills lol

ARTEM- you don’t have to have SPECTACULAR genetics to get a pro card, you do need some sort of spectacular genetics to win major shows like the O, Arnold, etc.
Indeed. You won’t get into the O unless you have some actual bodybuilder-genetics, so to speak.
The O and Arnold and the guys competing in those get more coverage than most of the other stuff, so people are used to seeing those guys…
Make no mistake, they out-genetic each and every one of us and shot past their peers and gym-buddies in their early days without even trying.

Ever hear that gay saying ‘shoot for the moon and if you miss you land among the stars’ Try and build the best physique you can and start competing…even if you don’t get a pro card someday then I’d bet you still build up one damn impressive physique!

DG

Sure. But the days where guys with so-so genetics could get to the top (or near) are dead and gone.

No amount of drug-usage will change that.

Edit: Goddamn spelling.

Yeah, it seems the general consensus is that you can tell within the first year or so of training if you’ve got the genetics to be the best of the best bodybuilders on the planet, no?

not at all…
I’ve been lifting seriously for more than a year and have not stalled once. I had a period when I didn’t record any progress and just did a bunch of sets to failure every workout, and put on about 20lbs during that period, but I record all progress now and still get stronger every single workout.

I can definitely tell that I put on more mass easily, but I don’t know when I’ll stall and how I’ll look when I do. That’s probably when you start to get an idea.

You do learn how hard you can train without overstraining early on, though. I’ve never “overtrained,” so I can’t say what it would feel like, but my workouts are usually 2-2.5 hours and a lot of people say that they would o"vertrain" if they did that. It works great for me, so whatever…

[/quote]

I suppose. I guess I was just thinking along the lines of elite level athletes. You never hear Olympic level sprinters/swimmers/(insert here) talking about how slow/weak/unremarkable they used to be. But that’s different.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Artem wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote
That’s the thing, I think I have what it takes to build the muscle, but I’ve never even seen more than a 4 pack on myself. Does that mean I won’t be able to get lean enough to compete seriously, or will I just need to diet for longer? I’m afraid to lose muscles on a really long diet.

I have no idea. But I will say that it means that you probably wont look like a pro by the time you are 20. If you plan to stay natural for the rest of your training career it would be best not to compare yourself to guys on drugs. Take training advice from them; sure. Nutrition advice; sure, to an extent (you know your body best). But anabolics put people in a completely different ballpark when it comes to max potential.

[/quote]
No dude, I’m saying I think I have the genetics to put on that kind of muscle, but I’ve never been very lean. I’m probably like 2-3% BF (I have no idea) higher and 65lbs heavier than in my profile pics.
Those pics are when I was eating no more than 2000 calories a day though, usually less, and I still couldn’t get lean. I eat 5-6k now.

Alex Lesukov is a monster! Why did i not train in my teens and why did i not eat or train much in my twenties!!!

I’m kicking the shit out of my self all throughout my thirties and eating like a horse.

Those videos just proved that castleberry is a douche, but a very large, strong douche at that. I guess you can’t talk to much smack about how a guy lifts when he’s that big and strong at his age, but I think like others have said that tendon issues are going to be HUGE for him when he’s older.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Artem wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote
Live:
I was not saying that guys with average genetics should not persue their goals. I was saying that guys with top level genetics will be able to peak much earlier than guys without top genetics, that’s all. Lesukov obviously has stellar genetics for bodybuilding. If he never lifted weights I’d bet he’d still look much better than your average guy who also doesn’t lift weights (at a mature age of course, not as a teen). Aaron Clark has good genetics too (maybe not in his upper back/lats but sure as hell in his legs and arms JMO).

Great genetics + hard work + intelligent drug use = world class physique. Average genetics + hard work + intelligent drug use = Better than average physique. No argument there.

edit[/quote]

i agree with most of this except that if Aaron Clark had never lifted a weight he wouldve stayed that sub 200 kid forever. having the body of a skateboarder isnt really an impressive thing. the guy worked his ass off, bottom line. like i said w/ epigenesis theres certain things youll never know genetically until youre introduced to a specific stimulus. so maybe youre a kid who looks like a stick figure then you train, all of a sudden youre huge. i mean its not common but its possible. so maybe he had hidden genetics or maybe hes just a great example of what happens when you bust your ass no matter what odds are against you.

either way, i think all these guys are inspirations for everybody.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
I think its interesting about this cassleberry guy though. In those clips he really doesn’t look all that big, but his strength is crazy. I’m impressed[/quote]

the hell do you consider big then?

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
Artem wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote
Live:
I was not saying that guys with average genetics should not persue their goals. I was saying that guys with top level genetics will be able to peak much earlier than guys without top genetics, that’s all. Lesukov obviously has stellar genetics for bodybuilding. If he never lifted weights I’d bet he’d still look much better than your average guy who also doesn’t lift weights (at a mature age of course, not as a teen). Aaron Clark has good genetics too (maybe not in his upper back/lats but sure as hell in his legs and arms JMO).

Great genetics + hard work + intelligent drug use = world class physique. Average genetics + hard work + intelligent drug use = Better than average physique. No argument there.

edit

i agree with most of this except that if Aaron Clark had never lifted a weight he wouldve stayed that sub 200 kid forever. having the body of a skateboarder isnt really an impressive thing. the guy worked his ass off, bottom line. like i said w/ epigenesis theres certain things youll never know genetically until youre introduced to a specific stimulus. so maybe youre a kid who looks like a stick figure then you train, all of a sudden youre huge. i mean its not common but its possible. so maybe he had hidden genetics or maybe hes just a great example of what happens when you bust your ass no matter what odds are against you.

either way, i think all these guys are inspirations for everybody.[/quote]

I think we have differing opinions on what builds muscles; lifting weights or eating food.

In Clark’s before pics he didn’t eat. I’m saying guys like Lesukov and possibly Clark would simply look better than your average guy if, say, (just to server as an example of a good mass building diet) they were both on the anabolic diet but did not lift weights.