T Nation

Uncovered: The Truth About the Iraq War

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
If I hear another person tell me what the truth is about Iraq I am going to punch him in the face. I did not vote for Bush, but I would have shot myself before voting in Kerry. Regardless, we are at a point now where just about every person in our military is there because they either enlisted or re-enlisted knowing full well the war is on and they will likely go. Very few got forced into Iraq. To that I say leave us military guys the hell alone! If we want to fight, let us fight.

Everyone talks about why we are fighting the war. Believe it or not, Bush is not fighting the war, thousands of individual Americans are. Without their enlistments there is no war. Not everyone is a mindless zombie piping up some 9/11 garbage or talking about WMD’s. They each have their own individual reasons. I volunteered after a year in college to go back because I have seen the kind of people we are fighting now and they are honest to God evil people. The Iraqi military was NOT evil, these jihadis ARE.

Sitting in the jungle in '02 with some Phillipino airmen drinking San Miguel before we did another convoy against the Abu Sayeff terrorist group I saw a video mailed to the men where an ambush is filmed which leads to rounding some guys up, beheading them and smiling to the camera with their heads in hand. That haunts me to this day. That was the only time in my life I WANTED to kill. Those are the kind of sick fucks we are fighting now in Iraq.

We fight for different reasons, that is mine and I know that I am not alone. If you don’t like Bush, you should have tried harder to convince the idiots in this country not to vote for him. You should have decided to vote your conscience instead of a “lesser of two evils”. But the votes have been cast. Bash Bush’s other policies if you wish, but shut up about the war. It is OUR [the military’s] war, let us fight, and if need be, die for what we believe in without you people telling us how brainwashed and lied to we were.
Mike[/quote]

oohh…another internet tough guy!

following ANY politician blindly is a VERY bad idea…

if ANY politician from ANY party intentionally deceives the American public that politician should be kicked out of office (I know, that wouldn’t leave very many politicians left)…

oh, by the way, you were lied to…and I’m sure it won’t be the last time…

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

Sepukku wrote:
It is one of the few videos that people should actually watch and consider, because it is one of the few down to earth examples that one can find amongst all the extreme conspiracies.

DPH wrote:
don’t you get it yet?

according to the we love G.W. fan club, anything anti-Bush and co. is an extreme conspiracy with nothing but twisted propaganda and other falsehoods…

many politicians are worshipped as hero’s by their respective groups (G.W. being a prime example)…and no one will accept their hero’s as doing anything unconscionable…

people believe what they want to believe regardless of any evidence presented…

I don’t think that’s it at all – it’s not a matter of heroes. It’s a matter of villians… That’s why negative campaigning works so well.[/quote]

wrong…

there are millions of people that put their political hero’s on pedastels and refuse to accept ANY notions of dubious character…

these people only accept ‘negative’ information about politicians that are not their hero’s…

[quote]30yrheel wrote:
so you’re willing to send your son or daughter to die for our right to pay for skyrocketing fuel prices?
i,m not.[/quote]

Wrong POV, bro. You’re not thinking like a president. There is a necessity to look at a bigger picture than your own personal life when you are in charge of the most powerful nation in the world.

This doesn’t mean you ignore the perspectives of the individuals in the republic, but you cannot base your decisions JUST on those appeals.

To answer your question, if my child was willing to join the armed services to fight for truth, justice, and the American Way (cue eye rolls from the pussies), then I would feel nothing but pride. Do you have children? I have two.

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
We fight for different reasons, that is mine and I know that I am not alone. If you don’t like Bush, you should have tried harder to convince the idiots in this country not to vote for him. You should have decided to vote your conscience instead of a “lesser of two evils”. But the votes have been cast. Bash Bush’s other policies if you wish, but shut up about the war. It is OUR [the military’s] war, let us fight, and if need be, die for what we believe in without you people telling us how brainwashed and lied to we were.

Mike[/quote]

Pussies: Please re-read the above passage. This is the essence of courage. You can stand to learn something from Mr. Mike here.

Good Luck.

The military operates at the behest of the public… always has and always will… at least if you want to live within a democracy.

Wanting to serve is indeed great, and I don’t think anyone is saying anything against that, but the service that is to be asked of you will be decided by the administration (which hopefully will have some input from the will of the public and will also hopefully refrain from manipulating the public will).

[quote]vroom wrote:
The military operates at the behest of the public… always has and always will… at least if you want to live within a democracy.

Wanting to serve is indeed great, and I don’t think anyone is saying anything against that, but the service that is to be asked of you will be decided by the administration (which hopefully will have some input from the will of the public and will also hopefully refrain from manipulating the public will).[/quote]

Quite true, my friend. I think our esteemed colleague is trying to get across the point that nobody forced him to go over there and fight. He is willing to get the job done for reasons other than “'cause they told me so”, and he can see the value in the work he is doing over there.

That’s a hell of a lot more than you can say for many many many other people doing their jobs, isn’t it? And we wonder why middle-aged men have mid-life crises. All you have to do is inject a little meaning and purpose in your life, and you don’t have to go out and buy a corvette to compensate. :slight_smile:

[quote]vroom wrote:

The military operates at the behest of the public… always has and always will… at least if you want to live within a democracy.[/quote]

You’re absolutely right vroom. I am certainly not saying that the military should operate independant of civilian oversight. That is extremely dangerous. I am merely making my case. We are free to do that in a democracy. Provided we are not in a foreign land raping and pillaging, then why should the people have a problem with willing members of their society fighting?

DHP–

I am certainly making no claim to being a badass. If my time in the service has done anything, it has humbled me. However, you really should reread what I wrote. What was I lied to about? I said that I went after we knew there were no WMD’s. I still do not buy the fact that Saddam was involved in 9/11. I did not go to fight for America’'s freedom, I went to fight for Iraq’s. They deserve it just as much (and in many ways more) than we do. Seriously, what was I lied to about? I didn’t vote for Bush. I am anti-patriot act. But I do know that those people deserve freedom. I also know that an attack on freedom anywhere is an attack on freedom everywhere. I fight vocally here to preserve our dwindling freedoms in America where that is an option and I fought with a rifle to defend it where that was needed in Iraq.

Mike

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
DHP–

I am certainly making no claim to being a badass. If my time in the service has done anything, it has humbled me. However, you really should reread what I wrote. What was I lied to about? I said that I went after we knew there were no WMD’s. I still do not buy the fact that Saddam was involved in 9/11. I did not go to fight for America’'s freedom, I went to fight for Iraq’s. They deserve it just as much (and in many ways more) than we do. Seriously, what was I lied to about? I didn’t vote for Bush. I am anti-patriot act. But I do know that those people deserve freedom. I also know that an attack on freedom anywhere is an attack on freedom everywhere. I fight vocally here to preserve our dwindling freedoms in America where that is an option and I fought with a rifle to defend it where that was needed in Iraq.

Mike[/quote]

well stated…

I’m glad you are not fooled by the typical line of political crap that so many are mislead with…if you’re in it to fight for others freedom you’re in it for the right reason…

I especially like this quote “I also know that an attack on freedom anywhere is an attack on freedom everywhere.”…

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Pussies: Please re-read the above passage. This is the essence of courage. You can stand to learn something from Mr. Mike here.[/quote]

pussies???

courage is standing up for what you think is right…

even if it’s something that the great lothario disagrees with…

[quote]DPH wrote:
pussies???

courage is standing up for what you think is right…

even if it’s something that the great lothario disagrees with…[/quote]

Ah yes, but what is it that you are defending? There is a courage in standing up to what y’all feel is lies and deceit… I like that. As I said before, I have my suspicions about Mr. Bush myself.

BUT

Don’t use that vehemence against falsehood to cover up what may (emphasize: may) be a lack of willingness to do what is right, even if it is difficult and costly.

Iraqi freedom has been hard-won. We have paid for it with many lives, and countless amounts of money. I have a feeling that you are one who thinks that none of our sacrifice has been worth it, and that it was a terrible idea to begin with… predicated on lie, carried through on false pretenses, and all for nothing.

You are no fool, DPH. Ask Mikey if it is worth it. Fuck Michael Moore. Ask the guys that are there, that have been there. I have friends going back soon. I have friends who enlisted. They carry no illusions about why… just like Mr. Mike here.

A pussy will find any reason to avoid confrontation, no matter how necessary. He will abandon his principles at the first sign of trouble. Please make sure that this is not you.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
30yrheel wrote:
so you’re willing to send your son or daughter to die for our right to pay for skyrocketing fuel prices?
i,m not.

Wrong POV, bro. You’re not thinking like a president. There is a necessity to look at a bigger picture than your own personal life when you are in charge of the most powerful nation in the world.

This doesn’t mean you ignore the perspectives of the individuals in the republic, but you cannot base your decisions JUST on those appeals.

To answer your question, if my child was willing to join the armed services to fight for truth, justice, and the American Way (cue eye rolls from the pussies), then I would feel nothing but pride. Do you have children? I have two.[/quote]

yes, i have two teenage sons so it breaks my heart to see kids the same age as my sons getting blown up for Mr. Bush’s wet dream. I’m old enough to have barely missed going to Vietnam, my father served in the Korean War, Grandparents and Uncles served in WW2.
Don’t preach to me about bravery, I believe in fighting for a just cause, but anyone with common sense can see that this is not a just cause.

You can tell perspective is lost the moment the mind of the entire military is somehow linked to who is in office. I disagree with MANY of the actions of this administration. I am also military. Me being military doesn’t mean I need to stop people from talking about how the administration screwed up.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
DPH wrote:
pussies???

courage is standing up for what you think is right…

even if it’s something that the great lothario disagrees with…

Ah yes, but what is it that you are defending? There is a courage in standing up to what y’all feel is lies and deceit… I like that. As I said before, I have my suspicions about Mr. Bush myself.

BUT

Don’t use that vehemence against falsehood to cover up what may (emphasize: may) be a lack of willingness to do what is right, even if it is difficult and costly.

Iraqi freedom has been hard-won. We have paid for it with many lives, and countless amounts of money. I have a feeling that you are one who thinks that none of our sacrifice has been worth it, and that it was a terrible idea to begin with… predicated on lie, carried through on false pretenses, and all for nothing.

You are no fool, DPH. Ask Mikey if it is worth it. Fuck Michael Moore. Ask the guys that are there, that have been there. I have friends going back soon. I have friends who enlisted. They carry no illusions about why… just like Mr. Mike here.

A pussy will find any reason to avoid confrontation, no matter how necessary. He will abandon his principles at the first sign of trouble. Please make sure that this is not you.[/quote]

Iraq isn’t free. If we pulled out completely today, that entire region would fall into conflict. This entire process should have been better thought out before it began. There NEEDS to be discussion of why and how it was screwed up and by whom.

[quote]DPH wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
DHP–

I am certainly making no claim to being a badass. If my time in the service has done anything, it has humbled me. However, you really should reread what I wrote. What was I lied to about? I said that I went after we knew there were no WMD’s. I still do not buy the fact that Saddam was involved in 9/11. I did not go to fight for America’'s freedom, I went to fight for Iraq’s. They deserve it just as much (and in many ways more) than we do. Seriously, what was I lied to about? I didn’t vote for Bush. I am anti-patriot act. But I do know that those people deserve freedom. I also know that an attack on freedom anywhere is an attack on freedom everywhere. I fight vocally here to preserve our dwindling freedoms in America where that is an option and I fought with a rifle to defend it where that was needed in Iraq.

Mike

well stated…

I’m glad you are not fooled by the typical line of political crap that so many are mislead with…if you’re in it to fight for others freedom you’re in it for the right reason…

I especially like this quote “I also know that an attack on freedom anywhere is an attack on freedom everywhere.”…[/quote]

Again, something here is wrong. I didn’t join to fight for “Iraqi Freedom”. I joined to protect the ideas behind our own Constitution. That is what every military person took an oath to do. If you joined to “free Iraq”, I see large problems there…because Iraq isn’t the only country in the world in turmoil. We are not here to “save the world”.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

If you joined to “free Iraq”, I see large problems there…because Iraq isn’t the only country in the world in turmoil. We are not here to “save the world”. [/quote]

X-

As I stated before, we all have our own reasons for joining. I certainly am comfortable in that I followed through with my oath to support and defend the Constitution. I hear the “Iraq isn’t the only country in trouble” argument all the time. I concur. I can also say that if the U.S. deployed troops to kick ass in Sudan I would have been glad to do that. There are tons of places in the world that could use the attention Iraq is getting. The happiest time of my life was my four months of OEF in the Phillipines against the Abu Sayeff. Unfortunately though, I cannot grab my hunting rifle and walk into Sudan, Tibet, ect, and start kicking ass. If it worked that way I would be there as opposed to posting on this web site.

Because there are more than one place in the world in need of help should we just ignore them all? For some reason no one will give me a straight answer for this. It is certainly true that the U.S. will not be around forever. That doesn’t alleviate us from the responsibility of using what power we have to make the world a better place. Oddly enough, while reading Theodore Rex yesterday I stumbled across the words of T.R. which eerily matched my own vision of America’s future:

So they have; and so have all others. [nations vanished] The weak and the stationary have vanishied as surely as, and more rapidly than, those whose citizens felt within them the lift that impels generous souls to great and noble effort. This is only another wway of stating the universal law of death, which is itself part of the universal law of life…While the nation that has dared to be great, that has had the will and the power to change the destiny of the ages, in the end must die, …[it] really continues, though in changed form, to live foreevermore.

So what if some corrupt politician chose Iraq for its oil? I chose it because Saddam was a dick and the people deserve basic human dignity and freedom. If we decided to attack Canada for its forests I would not fight. Canadians are doing all right. It is actually quite a simple equation. Tyannical leader plus Need help = I fight

I have plenty of respect for you X, but you have me at a loss here. As a military man are you saying that you would refuse orders to Iraq? I think it is safe to say that we were not too badly threatened, nor was it required in defense of the Constitution.

Mike

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You can tell perspective is lost the moment the mind of the entire military is somehow linked to who is in office. I disagree with MANY of the actions of this administration. I am also military. Me being military doesn’t mean I need to stop people from talking about how the administration screwed up. [/quote]

Agreed. The administration is full of screw ups. I just do not necessarily believe that means we should automatically scrap the whole war.

Mike

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Because there are more than one place in the world in need of help should we just ignore them all? For some reason no one will give me a straight answer for this. [/quote]

Then allow me to be the first. My primary concern is AMERICA. I could truly not care less about Iraq unless by helping it, this country is helped in the process. I am all for humanitarian aid and have been on missions in that regard to third world countries. I am leaving shortly for another soon. I have a deep seated interest in helping others who are less fortunate and have aimed my life in that direction. However, if it was in this country’s best interest to pull out of Iraq today, anyone claiming we should stay is a dumbass. I didn’t join for Iraq. I didn’t join for Bush. I didn’t join for the Republicans. I also didn’t join so I could simply be a puppet with no say in how I act. I consider anyone who joined “to free Iraq” to be in this for the wrong reasons.

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Because there are more than one place in the world in need of help should we just ignore them all? For some reason no one will give me a straight answer for this.
Mike[/quote]

simple answer (it’s much more complex than this but)…

America lacks the resources to fight every injustice in the world…

hell, we’re having enough internal problems as it is that we haven’t addressed…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Then allow me to be the first. My primary concern is AMERICA. I could truly not care less about Iraq unless by helping it, this country is helped in the process. I am all for humanitarian aid and have been on missions in that regard to third world countries. I am leaving shortly for another soon. I have a deep seated interest in helping others who are less fortunate and have aimed my life in that direction. However, if it was in this country’s best interest to pull out of Iraq today, anyone claiming we should stay is a dumbass. I didn’t join for Iraq. I didn’t join for Bush. I didn’t join for the Republicans. I also didn’t join so I could simply be a puppet with no say in how I act. I consider anyone who joined “to free Iraq” to be in this for the wrong reasons.[/quote]

good point…the interests of the US should always come first…

although I don’t think that a young soldier wanting to fight for freedom is a bad thing…fighting for our own freedom (i.e. defending the constitution, etc.) must take precedence…

[quote]
Mikeyali wrote:
Because there are more than one place in the world in need of help should we just ignore them all? For some reason no one will give me a straight answer for this.
Mike

DPH wrote:
simple answer (it’s much more complex than this but)…

America lacks the resources to fight every injustice in the world…

hell, we’re having enough internal problems as it is that we haven’t addressed…[/quote]

So we shouldn’t address ANY injustices until we can fight them all at the same time?