Un-Conventional Hypertrophy?

[quote]ucallthatbass wrote:

Don’t be the dick that writes all in CAPS, it’s really not cool[/quote]

fuck man i only did it in order to look cool and now you tell me its not…damn!

[quote]boom boom wrote:
do you have a link to the article[/quote]

Thanks to those of you that have been helpful. I have a good idea of what im gonna try, but still need to do a little research, because I am new to both complexes and sled training. As for the complexes, im going to keep them pretty simple, with probably cleans, push press, front squat, RDLs, maybe lunges, and maybe high pulls.

That will be for my BB complexes, and I’ll likely have a DB complex utilizing 1 or 2 dbs. This would probably be, swings, snatches, shoulder presses, lunges and maybe a squat.

For “heavy lifting” or ME i’ll probably just stick to floor press (or bench) and Pullups. And later if I can handle a lower movement, i’ll add squats probably.

For assistance work, maybe leg curls, face pulls, pullups, calves. But I may not need any assistance work at all.

Ive read a lot for sled work, and will be doing it with straps. So I can do a forward push, a pull, a shoulder raise position push, and a rear delt raise position pull (if that makes sense) Im making my own sleds out of tires, and will only be able to go to 90lbs (thats all I have now) so i may have to get a truck tire soon.

As for now, im thinking of complexes on M,W,F and sled/strongman type stuff on T,TH,S but if needed I can drop S for more recover. Or as ive heard, throwing in lower intensity sled stuff is great for regeneration/recovery.

I also have a 90lb heavy bag that I can do carries and shouldering with, and am gonna make a slosh pipe.

Thats what ive come up with so far, but still need to do some trial and error, and get other’s input.

As for my reasoning.

  1. I HAVE put size on my legs doing hill sprints and other “non-gym” exercises.
  2. I want to hit a high frequency of training with higher workloads, and the sled work is going to be much more forgiving on my back.
  3. Ive never tried barbell complexes really, especially not heavy for size, but… I know just doing a long set of cleans or front squats, and not only are my legs screaming; but every supporting muscle in my body is on fire, from my traps to my forearms to my calves.

Im not going to be doing light ass weight on these complexes, im thinking i’ll probably start out with 135, and go up from there. It WILL probably be a bit light for my lower body, which i’ll have to overcome in some way. But the complexes could be considered to target entire body with emphasis on upper body, and the sled work could be considered entire body with emphasis on lower body, so this may work out.

Lastly, for the complexes, i’ll probably use a ladder method. Where I start with 1 rep, then 2, then 3… all the way to 5-7 reps. Then i’ll work my way back down. And progress in load as always will be the goal.

Lastly, for my reasoining:

To gain muscle, all you really need is excess calories, adequate protein, Maximal muscular contractions, and enough TUT. And of course adequate recovery. The above plan should take care of all of these training aspects. And i’ll be eating to gain at least 2lbs a week.

[quote]dankid wrote:
Has anyone used complexes and sled training to pack on size successfully?

The reason I ask, is that im following Dan John’s 40 day program, but doing it for 21 days instead. He mentions that he feels complexes are great for size. I posted up a possible routine in that thread but go no answers.

But the main thing would be that if using complexes, you’d probably want to start each workout with a heavy ME type lift, since you wont be able to go quite as heavy in a complex. And then assistance work could be done after the complex, on stuff luck DB rows, curls, face pulls, etc.

As for sled training. If you are using it for size, do you pretty much just treat them like sprints for size? Higher intensity/shorter distances, short rest periods?

Thx for any advice.[/quote]

I think this is a pertinent question. I will try to ignore the majority of violents flaming posts here and try to answer some of your questions.

Complexes. Although this exercises won’t get any one particular muscle group up to a high relative intensity, that’s not the point. These are based around explosive power training (ability to generate lots of force quickly), as well as the evidence to show that whole body type movements elicit a greater hormonal and neuromuscular response than isolated movements.

However, if your goal is to add mass, then conventional deadlifts/squats would be more appropriate.

Sled training is quite an interesting area to play around with. No doubt weighting a sled and basically doing a 5-10m sprint is incredibly demanding. This is generally used to aid in initial acceleration for sporting athletes. The idea behind hypertrophy with this type of work is owing to the two points above; with load it may be at a level where the initial steps require high relative muscle activity levels in the gluteals, hamstrings, quads etc.

Also, the high force generating requirements of going all out will recruit primarily type II muscle fibers, which is what you’re after. Also, the whole big metabolic stimulus thing from these type of movements. Unfortunately good evidence for these programs exclusively causing hypertrophy is confounded since most people are doing conventional weights as well.

Look, there’s no harm in doing these exercises. You will probably get a nice training effect, but compared to conventional resistance training I don’t think you’ll get the same long-term hypertrophy.

If defranco’s guys can do strongman training then so can you.

Also note in the Westside for Skinny Bastards 3 template he suggests HEAVY sledge pulls, tire flips, etc. for possible ME exercises.

Also 2lb a week sounds like a good recipe for fat gain.

I tried out a homemade sled today. I just attached some ropes to a car tire, tossed in two 45’s and went for it. It was crazy hard. Should be good for me for a while, then i’ll either get some more weight to pile on or grab a truck tire. After trying it though, I can guarantee it will build up my legs. Possibly even better than squats.

This dude has a point, it just doesn’t make any kind of sense that conditioning stuff would build muscles. Would you do an ironman to get that sweet quad sweep?

[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:

I think this is a pertinent question. I will try to ignore the majority of violents flaming posts here and try to answer some of your questions.

However, if your goal is to add mass, then conventional deadlifts/squats would be more appropriate.

Look, there’s no harm in doing these exercises. You will probably get a nice training effect, but compared to conventional resistance training I don’t think you’ll get the same long-term hypertrophy.[/quote]

“violent” lol. i some how doubt dankid is currently in A&E due to my posts. there are no expletives or excessive insults (“moron” is not an insult, it is an accurate definition of the OP). maybe you mean “threatening”? again, point out how they are threatening and i will eat my hat. If you dont know what a word means, then please do not use it.

you say “there is no harm in doing them.” similarly, there is no harm in running marathons. however, if the goal is to add mass, are running marathons helpful? No.

this guy is planning on using these tools to gain mass NOT for conditioning purposes. as such, he is going to use complexes as an ME exercise. this will just hinder recovery from exercises which actually will build mass, eg squat. and will just slow progress down/reduce it to zero.

I AM HELPING THE OP BY SAYING ALL OF THIS. i am saving him wasting his time doing this cos he thinks they are “hardcore.”

Finally OP, you should be thankful for my advice, not dismissive. just because it isnt what you want to hear doesnt mean it isnt what you need to hear.

And your total ignorance is yet again reinforced for the tenth time in this thread in that you think you are going to be starting out with 135lbs for complexes? lol please post a video of this. no doubt you think you will be using 225 by the end of the month right? you will not be getting through a true barbell complex with 135 unless you are exceptionally strong. the fact you have added mass to your legs by running around makes me strongly doubt that you are.

[quote]stringer wrote:
dankid wrote:
stringer wrote:
dankid wrote:
Has anyone used complexes and sled training to pack on size successfully?

The reason I ask, is that im following Dan John’s 40 day program, but doing it for 21 days instead. He mentions that he feels complexes are great for size. I posted up a possible routine in that thread but go no answers.

But the main thing would be that if using complexes, you’d probably want to start each workout with a heavy ME type lift, since you wont be able to go quite as heavy in a complex. And then assistance work could be done after the complex, on stuff luck DB rows, curls, face pulls, etc.

As for sled training. If you are using it for size, do you pretty much just treat them like sprints for size? Higher intensity/shorter distances, short rest periods?

Thx for any advice.

-why are you doing the 40 day program for only 21 days?

-how would complexes add significant mass to people who are not completely untrained?

-what are “sprints for size” and who does them?

-how would dragging a sled add significant mass?

-can you please name one single bodybuilder in history who has advocated sprints/sleds/complexes FOR SIZE?

GO HOME!!! Seriously. If you read the article, Dan John mentions you can do it for 40 days or 21 or whatever. He also mentions, that complexes are one of the best methods to add all around mass. Plenty of articles on this very site metion that sleds can be used to build size, without having to load up your spine too much. And no, i cant name a single bb’er who did this, and that is why this is in the STRENGTH SPORTS section.

THEN WHY ARE YOU ASKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT DOING THIS IN ORDER TO GAIN SIZE YOU FUCKING MORON?

these things will not add significant size. THATS WHY NO BODYBUILDER WOULD EVER DO THEM. FURTHERMORE YOU POSTED THIS IN THE WRONG FUCKING FORUM, YOUR QUESTIONS ARE RELATED TO SIZE, NOT STRENGTH AND SO THIS SHOULD BE IN THE BB SECTION.

YOU ARE A TOTAL MORON.

[/quote]

Actually sprints can add size. Why do you think short distance sprinters have huge quads? And sprints also help strength if not over done. YOU ARE A TOTAL MORAN

I don’t have the scientific knowledge of many other posters, so I’ll just relate my own experience: in High School I was a sprinter, I NEVER did any squat/deadlift/sled stuff back then…'cause (now I realize) my coach wasn’t really a good one!

Anyway, my legs grew by only sprinting very hard, x3 a week, and since then (I’m 34 now), my lower body has always been my stronger point (hell, I still struggle to grow my arms as big as my calves…).

I don’t even want to talk about all amateur-league soccer players I met: they didn’t even know what a squat was, but they had all the quad sweep and tear drop you can think of.

So, sprinting DOES build legs (up to a certain point); is sprinting the best way to get huge (BB-level) quads and hams? I don’t think so.

[quote]fabiop wrote:
I don’t have the scientific knowledge of many other posters, so I’ll just relate my own experience: in High School I was a sprinter, I NEVER did any squat/deadlift/sled stuff back then…'cause (now I realize) my coach wasn’t really a good one!
Anyway, my legs grew by only sprinting very hard, x3 a week, and since then (I’m 34 now), my lower body has always been my stronger point (hell, I still struggle to grow my arms as big as my calves…).

I don’t even want to talk about all amateur-league soccer players I met: they didn’t even know what a squat was, but they had all the quad sweep and tear drop you can think of.

So, sprinting DOES build legs (up to a certain point); is sprinting the best way to get huge (BB-level) quads and hams? I don’t think so.[/quote]

Finally someone that knows something about training posts a good comment.!!! Thank you I agree 100%

[quote]charger21 wrote:

Actually sprints can add size. Why do you think short distance sprinters have huge quads? And sprints also help strength if not over done. YOU ARE A TOTAL MORAN[/quote]

ok here we go again:

-the OP only asked about size, strength here is not relevant.

-short distance sprinters have “huge” quads??? could you please post pics of a single one please? they may have relatively large quads but they are not “huge.”

-short distance sprinters have developed legs cos they sprint??? are you sure its not due to their genetics/drugs/weight training???

-find me one athletics coach in history who says ‘you know my guy’s got potential, but he just doesnt have the muscular development at the moment… our plan is to make him RUN to develop muscular size in his legs.’

-Finally, the piece de resistance, you have spelt the word “moron” or “moran” i think that just about sums up your stupidity and is the reason you should close your mouth and listen rather than speak.

You go on every forum and run your mouth. I dont think your as smart as you think you are. No doubt sprints build legs. Sprinting not running. By the way, I listen enough to know when not to listen and in these forums its when you speak. I have never read one thing positive you have added to any discussion so maybe its time for you to learn a thing or two.

Add 10 40yard wind sprints to your leg day and let me know how much you gain on your squat. That is if you even do squats. After trying it out then get back on this forum and correct your self.

[quote]charger21 wrote:
You go on every forum and run your mouth. I dont think your as smart as you think you are. No doubt sprints build legs. Sprinting not running. By the way, I listen enough to know when not to listen and in these forums its when you speak. I have never read one thing positive you have added to any discussion so maybe its time for you to learn a thing or two. Add 10 40yard wind sprints to your leg day and let me know how much you gain on your squat. That is if you even do squats. After trying it out then get back on this forum and correct your self.[/quote]

I do not “run my mouth” its not my fault you cannot read. go through my posts, if people are rude to me then i am rude back. such is life. i have offered advice in this very thread, and in many other threads. actual intelligent comments, having used my brain. not sweeping statements like “no doubt sprints build legs.” “no doubt”? lol ive asked you to prove it many times and you have completely failed. so clearly there is a lot of doubt, not zero.

and you want me to run the 40 yard to add to my squat? what are you even talking about now you must be confusing even yourself. this thread was about SIZE.

i am done with this thread. if you guys want to try and build muscular legs by running around and dragging your toys around the playground then knock yourselves out.

Take your ball and go home. That always works when your getting picked on. The proof is in the pudding. Try it you’ll like the results. Again Sprinting not running. There is a big difference. Sprints are short. Running is long. Sprints build quickness and strength and SIZE. Running builds endurance and makes you skinny. Hope this is in terms you can understand.

As long as you are eating to gain size, I don’t see why this wouldn’t work for some hypertrophy. No, it won’t turn you into the next ronnie coleman, but I think people get too caught up with the whole notion of, “you can only gain size by training like a bodybuilder”. If you are giving max effort, focusing on progression, and eating right, you will get bigger and stronger.

To the OP, you probably already know it, but complexes are high density training. Adjust your calorie intake accordingly.

[quote]iwong wrote:
As long as you are eating to gain size, I don’t see why this wouldn’t work for some hypertrophy. No, it won’t turn you into the next ronnie coleman, but I think people get too caught up with the whole notion of, “you can only gain size by training like a bodybuilder”. If you are giving max effort, focusing on progression, and eating right, you will get bigger and stronger.

To the OP, you probably already know it, but complexes are high density training. Adjust your calorie intake accordingly.[/quote]

Very well put. Much agreed.

Just to feed the fire, I’d say this guy’s quads are pretty damn big, but then again he could also squat around 600lbs for reps…

Dankid,

I’d suggest that when you do the sprint sled work, make sure you are starting from a good standard 3-point sprinting start. The initial acceleration, which is where any effect of load is going to have on your musculature, will be from the gluts/hams, as well as hip flexors. Try to stay low as long as you can and drive your ass off.

Ideally, you don’t want to be having to use too many muscle groups to get the thing working. If so, you will lose the positive effect. So, don’t go too heavy.

This type of training has been shown to increase power, strength, and aid in the conversion of IIb to IIa fibers.

So, stay low and drive.

One of the other parts to technique you can play with is your early stride length. Initial acceleration is positively influenced by a rapid change in stride length. Moral to this story, try to be powerful, but stretch out as well as staying low.

For prescription of this type of exercise, the key is to make sure each rep is the best quality possible. Approx 1-minute break should be enough, but if you need more I’d suggest take it. I’d also only suggest aiming for 6-10 repeats in a session.

Good luck buddy! The only thing I can say is if you do this kind of training right you will be pretty sore.

Regarding complexes i’m pretty sure that all olympic weight lifters use complexes, i’ve trained with a few and they all did some complex work somewhere in their training, kinda makes sense really as their actual competitive sport is a complex!!

[quote]stringer wrote:
charger21 wrote:

Actually sprints can add size. Why do you think short distance sprinters have huge quads? And sprints also help strength if not over done. YOU ARE A TOTAL MORAN

ok here we go again:

-the OP only asked about size, strength here is not relevant.

-short distance sprinters have “huge” quads??? could you please post pics of a single one please? they may have relatively large quads but they are not “huge.”

-short distance sprinters have developed legs cos they sprint??? are you sure its not due to their genetics/drugs/weight training???

-find me one athletics coach in history who says ‘you know my guy’s got potential, but he just doesnt have the muscular development at the moment… our plan is to make him RUN to develop muscular size in his legs.’

-Finally, the piece de resistance, you have spelt the word “moron” or “moran” i think that just about sums up your stupidity and is the reason you should close your mouth and listen rather than speak.
[/quote]

Actually both bike (sprinters) and speed skaters both have huge quads from their relative sprinting.

I would argure that the amount of weight training completed by most bike riders would be next to nothing. Speed skaters on the other hand probably do some weight training (Poliquin has written about this) as it’s more sports specific to their sport, and so their leg size would be due to a combination of both skating and weight training.

jc2000, both of those events are quad-dominant, sprints are not.