T Nation

UD2 vs Stubborn Fat Solution


#1

How far apart were these 2 books of his written? I just got UD2 online and haven't read either one yet but they seem to basically have the same intent and have both been written recently right?

How do you guys think the 2 compare?


#2

UD2 is a cyclical low carb-high carb transition back to low carb diet, focusing on a few glycogen depletion workouts with some supercompensation afterwords, a power workout after glycogen restored, then back to low carb. He doesn’t recommend as much fat consumption as the AD and has some good supplement recommendations as well.

I really like Lyle’s writing as it gives so much technical information on the biology behind his reasoning. Good Stuff.

Have not read stubborn fat solution, that and his guide to flexible dieting I really want to read.

But UD2 is focused on a “slower” fat burn than the stubborn fat solution I would imagine, but like I said, going to have to read SFS first…

Also UD2 is partially based on Body Opus by Dan Duchaine, and as far as the differences in those two, Body Opus had more focus on Fats and Ketosis, whereas Lyle views Ketosis as more of a side-effect than a goal of his UD2.


#3

[quote]skohcl wrote:
UD2 is a cyclical low carb-high carb transition back to low carb diet, focusing on a few glycogen depletion workouts with some supercompensation afterwords, a power workout after glycogen restored, then back to low carb. He doesn’t recommend as much fat consumption as the AD and has some good supplement recommendations as well.

I really like Lyle’s writing as it gives so much technical information on the biology behind his reasoning. Good Stuff.

Have not read stubborn fat solution, that and his guide to flexible dieting I really want to read.

But UD2 is focused on a “slower” fat burn than the stubborn fat solution I would imagine, but like I said, going to have to read SFS first…

Also UD2 is partially based on Body Opus by Dan Duchaine, and as far as the differences in those two, Body Opus had more focus on Fats and Ketosis, whereas Lyle views Ketosis as more of a side-effect than a goal of his UD2.[/quote]

By “slower” how slow are you talking? As I mentioned I have the book now but haven’t read it yet (literally just got it) but I’ve heard it shoots for 1-2lb. of fat loss a week if I’m not mistaken. Seems like an overall good plan but a lot of planning needs to be done compared to a typical keto diet


#4

honestly I hate UD2, a lot of people seem to just stall. Which may be their faults- but UD2 is just really fucking hard to do.

Stubborn fat solution is just a protocol for some morning cardio and not really a diet plan or whatever


#5

Elusive has done the UD 2.0 (can’t seem to find the thread with the search function though - maybe he can help).


#6

[quote]actionjeff wrote:
honestly I hate UD2, a lot of people seem to just stall. Which may be their faults- but UD2 is just really fucking hard to do.

Stubborn fat solution is just a protocol for some morning cardio and not really a diet plan or whatever[/quote]

Yea it does seem pretty hard to do. I hear mixed things. 3-4 of the people I’ve seen talk about it say they really liked it and it helped a lot. You and elusive apparently don’t like it much, although elusive started it after already doing extreme dieting for 11 weeks or so. Did you actually try it and if so for how long? And your saying you know a lot of people who just stalled quickly on it? I wonder if that would have anything to do with them not adding cardio and taking their carb ups too far.


#7

I’d think following the UD2 to the letter would yield decent results, but he builds in alot of “variability” so it’s ultimately up to the user.

Carb up following the last workout of the week, only carb up for 30 hours max, keep the sugars to a minimum, do your cardio and keep the cals below 2000 on Mon-Thurs. and you should lose a good amount without compromising too much muscle.

You might want to read Body Opus as well, I liked it a little better than UD2, right now I’m trying to mix protocols from UD2, AD, and Body Opus, just to find out what works best for my body. It was my birthday last weekend so I had too much beer to really judge the effectiveness of the carb up :wink:


#8

UD2 is awesome but as he states clearly in the book:

  1. you dont need this unless you are at a lowish bodyfat
  2. There are far far easier ways to get down to 10-12% than UD2

I loved it but unless you can commit to following it 100% you are better of with something else. I travel too much to be able to do it these days unfortunatley.

Stubborn body fat protocol is more for getting read of the very very last bit of fat, contest prep and things like that.

He wrote an updated version of Rapid Fat Loss, maybe check that out also.


#9

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
actionjeff wrote:
honestly I hate UD2, a lot of people seem to just stall. Which may be their faults- but UD2 is just really fucking hard to do.

Stubborn fat solution is just a protocol for some morning cardio and not really a diet plan or whatever

Yea it does seem pretty hard to do. I hear mixed things. 3-4 of the people I’ve seen talk about it say they really liked it and it helped a lot. You and elusive apparently don’t like it much, although elusive started it after already doing extreme dieting for 11 weeks or so. Did you actually try it and if so for how long? And your saying you know a lot of people who just stalled quickly on it? I wonder if that would have anything to do with them not adding cardio and taking their carb ups too far.[/quote]

The only people I know was just from reading logs, whatever, on other forums

I did it for 3.5 weeks last year. I’m not really sure how my progress was, but it was definitely extremely hard to do. I kept getting sick- and I never get sick- and I just ditched it.

and yeah, I mean if you screw with the kcal, way overdo the fat, mess up the workouts, etc etc, you are going to be in trouble. It may be really effective if implemented perfectly, but I guess I just didn’t have it in me and prefer a much more moderate approach. Certainly some people seemed to do well with it on lyle’s forum, some nice before/afters (although mostly in noob or intermediate trainees imho)


#10

/Threadjack

Anyone know if bromocriptine had any results w/ anyone? I read one testimonial, and I’ve read the book, sounds good. But the testimonial was from a dude @ “50% bf?” then he dropped down to “30%” and was like all “hell yeah, bromo is the shiz” I didn’t really think of that as a “successful” trial, and yah I kinda used alot of quotes there…


#11

[quote]stevo_ wrote:
UD2 is awesome but as he states clearly in the book:

  1. you don’t need this unless you are at a lowish bodyfat
  2. There are far far easier ways to get down to 10-12% than UD2

I loved it but unless you can commit to following it 100% you are better of with something else. I travel too much to be able to do it these days unfortunatley.

Stubborn body fat protocol is more for getting read of the very very last bit of fat, contest prep and things like that.

He wrote an updated version of Rapid Fat Loss, maybe check that out also.[/quote]

What were your results like when you did it? Starting and ending stats (weight and bf% mainly)

[quote]actionjeff wrote:

I did it for 3.5 weeks last year. I’m not really sure how my progress was, but it was definitely extremely hard to do. I kept getting sick- and I never get sick- and I just ditched it.

and yeah, I mean if you screw with the kcal, way overdo the fat, mess up the workouts, etc etc, you are going to be in trouble. It may be really effective if implemented perfectly, but I guess I just didn’t have it in me and prefer a much more moderate approach. Certainly some people seemed to do well with it on lyle’s forum, some nice before/afters (although mostly in noob or intermediate trainees imho)
[/quote]

What exactly was so extremely hard about it? It seems like you would need a good amount of discipline to stay to the calories but considering I do that regardless of the diet I don’t see why the nutrition aspect would be that hard. Seems like a lot of time for carbs and what not too. Or is it the training that you found so hard?


#12

For awhile, I was a big fan of UD2.0, probably because it was the first time I ever really got to see my abs (see photos). I hadn’t really gone through with a serious cut before this however. Truthfully, I started UD2.0 a little heavier than was recommended but I definitely saw results. It’s a pretty cool book to read I guess.

Not to diss Lyle, but in retrospect, I have come to the conclusion that ud2 wasn’t the most optimal way of cutting. The rest of this post will basically just be a rant off the top of my head…

The depletion workouts are honestly hell. I give some merit to lactate inducing type work but try two brutally difficult lactate producing workouts while running on 1500 calories with little to no carbohydrates- that’s just too low of a caloric intake for a 190 pound guy. Its recommended that whey protein/bcaa’s not be used peri/post workout or even a meal right afterwords to keep insulin levels low. Hell, even drinking water produces a small insulin spike. After a few weeks, you get used to becoming the walking face of catabolic death during this phase of the diet during which the only thing keeping you moving is the thoughts about how you’re going to devour Cookie Crisp Cereal until your stomach explodes, thereafter your asshole.

Speaking of the carb extravaganza, which comes once a week, this really does a pyschological number to you, and a physical number to your anus. However, thinking back to those carb coma’s puts a smile on my face for a second or two, followed by thoughts of disgust.

Another gripe about ud2 is that there is only 1 strength workout a week, although admittedly it was enough to prevent any noticeable LBM losses for myself. On the other hand, my training partner and friend claims that he lost considerable leg mass during ud2, and blames the depletion workouts.

Anyhow, I’m actually finishing up a very successful cut. I’ve been carb cycling, basically eating carbs on all workout days with low fat and low carb, mod fat on off days. I’ve been doing 5-3-1 with much success, 1-2 hiit days, 2-3 steady state cardio days, dynamic joint mobility and as much NEPA as possible. This has easily been the least hard cut I’ve ever done- the calories are high enough that I don’t feel like crap and am recovering, and workouts are progressing nicely- can’t wait to start clean bulking. I’m heavier and leaner than ever.

Now would I recommend ud2 to someone looking to get lean? Probably not. Would I tell them not to do it? No, but I’d tell them that its a difficult diet for many reasons and there could possibly be a more optimal alternative.


#13

[quote]skohcl wrote:
/Threadjack

Anyone know if bromocriptine had any results w/ anyone? I read one testimonial, and I’ve read the book, sounds good. But the testimonial was from a dude @ “50% bf?” then he dropped down to “30%” and was like all “hell yeah, bromo is the shiz” I didn’t really think of that as a “successful” trial, and yah I kinda used alot of quotes there…[/quote]

I’ve heard that it’s a) pretty harsh on the system and b) best used as dopamine atagonist while using certain anabolics and the whole partitioning effect really wasn’t that great. You could ask the guys in the steroid forum (after of course doing a site search - I think BBB has said he used it but it was harsh).
/Threadjack


#14

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
stevo_ wrote:
UD2 is awesome but as he states clearly in the book:

  1. you don’t need this unless you are at a lowish bodyfat
  2. There are far far easier ways to get down to 10-12% than UD2

I loved it but unless you can commit to following it 100% you are better of with something else. I travel too much to be able to do it these days unfortunatley.

Stubborn body fat protocol is more for getting read of the very very last bit of fat, contest prep and things like that.

He wrote an updated version of Rapid Fat Loss, maybe check that out also.

What were your results like when you did it? Starting and ending stats (weight and bf% mainly)

actionjeff wrote:

I did it for 3.5 weeks last year. I’m not really sure how my progress was, but it was definitely extremely hard to do. I kept getting sick- and I never get sick- and I just ditched it.

and yeah, I mean if you screw with the kcal, way overdo the fat, mess up the workouts, etc etc, you are going to be in trouble. It may be really effective if implemented perfectly, but I guess I just didn’t have it in me and prefer a much more moderate approach. Certainly some people seemed to do well with it on lyle’s forum, some nice before/afters (although mostly in noob or intermediate trainees imho)

What exactly was so extremely hard about it? It seems like you would need a good amount of discipline to stay to the calories but considering I do that regardless of the diet I don’t see why the nutrition aspect would be that hard. Seems like a lot of time for carbs and what not too. Or is it the training that you found so hard?
[/quote]

Apart from requiring a lot of discipline, the schedule is not very flexible. There are a lot of supplements and nutrition timing stuff. But the combo of the training + nutrition is the hardest part.

Basically, two 1.5- 2hr full body depletion workouts on consecutive days on 1500kcal or whatever is way, way harder than a PSMF or anything else I’ve done. The tension workout preceding the carb-up is also horrible. You REALLY suffer.


#15

[quote]Dolce wrote:

Anyhow, I’m actually finishing up a very successful cut. I’ve been carb cycling, basically eating carbs on all workout days with low fat and low carb, mod fat on off days. I’ve been doing 5-3-1 with much success, 1-2 hiit days, 2-3 steady state cardio days, dynamic joint mobility and as much NEPA as possible. This has easily been the least hard cut I’ve ever done- the calories are high enough that I don’t feel like crap and am recovering, and workouts are progressing nicely- can’t wait to start clean bulking. I’m heavier and leaner than ever.

[/quote]

Same here on pretty much everything except I’m doing a little rep/pump work instead of HIIT. Compared to UD2 or a PSMF… there is no comparison. I am working out more and my intensity isn’t suffering. I’m eating more consistently and look and feel better all the time. And I can live on a normal schedule.

So, fuck it. Gotta operate the easy way.


#16

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
stevo_ wrote:
UD2 is awesome but as he states clearly in the book:

  1. you don’t need this unless you are at a lowish bodyfat
  2. There are far far easier ways to get down to 10-12% than UD2

I loved it but unless you can commit to following it 100% you are better of with something else. I travel too much to be able to do it these days unfortunatley.

Stubborn body fat protocol is more for getting read of the very very last bit of fat, contest prep and things like that.

He wrote an updated version of Rapid Fat Loss, maybe check that out also.

What were your results like when you did it? Starting and ending stats (weight and bf% mainly)

actionjeff wrote:

I did it for 3.5 weeks last year. I’m not really sure how my progress was, but it was definitely extremely hard to do. I kept getting sick- and I never get sick- and I just ditched it.

and yeah, I mean if you screw with the kcal, way overdo the fat, mess up the workouts, etc etc, you are going to be in trouble. It may be really effective if implemented perfectly, but I guess I just didn’t have it in me and prefer a much more moderate approach. Certainly some people seemed to do well with it on lyle’s forum, some nice before/afters (although mostly in noob or intermediate trainees imho)

What exactly was so extremely hard about it? It seems like you would need a good amount of discipline to stay to the calories but considering I do that regardless of the diet I don’t see why the nutrition aspect would be that hard. Seems like a lot of time for carbs and what not too. Or is it the training that you found so hard?
[/quote]

Its not that the diet or training is that hard and I guess it all depends on your situation, you just have to do very specific things on very specific days,

I travel, play sports competitively at a high level, use different gyms with limited equipment, thus making compliance to something rigid very difficult.

I honestly couldn’t tell you exact stats, i did it at least 4 years ago and have lived in two other countries since then so needless to say those log books are long gone.

I would say i went from probably 15% to 10%, and probably gained a bit of muscle a long the way. I certainly didn’t lose any thats for sure. Not very scientific but easily the best results of had from a fat loss program.

If I ever get to a situation where I can train and eat in the same place for a month I would do it again in a heart beat. (assuming i wanted to lose fat)


#17

[quote]Dolce wrote:
For awhile, I was a big fan of UD2.0, probably because it was the first time I ever really got to see my abs (see photos). I hadn’t really gone through with a serious cut before this however. Truthfully, I started UD2.0 a little heavier than was recommended but I definitely saw results. It’s a pretty cool book to read I guess.

Not to diss Lyle, but in retrospect, I have come to the conclusion that ud2 wasn’t the most optimal way of cutting. The rest of this post will basically just be a rant off the top of my head…

The depletion workouts are honestly hell. I give some merit to lactate inducing type work but try two brutally difficult lactate producing workouts while running on 1500 calories with little to no carbohydrates- that’s just too low of a caloric intake for a 190 pound guy. Its recommended that whey protein/bcaa’s not be used peri/post workout or even a meal right afterwords to keep insulin levels low. Hell, even drinking water produces a small insulin spike. After a few weeks, you get used to becoming the walking face of catabolic death during this phase of the diet during which the only thing keeping you moving is the thoughts about how you’re going to devour Cookie Crisp Cereal until your stomach explodes, thereafter your asshole.

Speaking of the carb extravaganza, which comes once a week, this really does a pyschological number to you, and a physical number to your anus. However, thinking back to those carb coma’s puts a smile on my face for a second or two, followed by thoughts of disgust.

Another gripe about ud2 is that there is only 1 strength workout a week, although admittedly it was enough to prevent any noticeable LBM losses for myself. On the other hand, my training partner and friend claims that he lost considerable leg mass during ud2, and blames the depletion workouts.
[/quote]
Yea I’m a little surprised that your post was negative considering your results. I understand it though. It seems like the diet definitely works, but that it may be harder than necessary

As for only 1 strength workout…the tension workout is in the 6-12 rep range which is definitely good to keep muscle and even the depletion workouts would help retain it to a point if done at the correct intensity.

I understand the mental aspect being hard. Luckily it’s only 4 days with such low calories but I know when I did my CKD, even though I wasn’t very hungry, I was constantly thinking about my upcoming refeed. I don’t think thats any reason to specifically not do it but still since I switched to roughly the same calories each day and a more moderate approach (for now) I don’t think about saturday or whenever at all b/c it’s just like any other day. Refeeds can be fun though lol

[quote]Dolce wrote:
Anyhow, I’m actually finishing up a very successful cut. I’ve been carb cycling, basically eating carbs on all workout days with low fat and low carb, mod fat on off days. I’ve been doing 5-3-1 with much success, 1-2 hiit days, 2-3 steady state cardio days, dynamic joint mobility and as much NEPA as possible. This has easily been the least hard cut I’ve ever done- the calories are high enough that I don’t feel like crap and am recovering, and workouts are progressing nicely- can’t wait to start clean bulking. I’m heavier and leaner than ever.

Now would I recommend ud2 to someone looking to get lean? Probably not. Would I tell them not to do it? No, but I’d tell them that its a difficult diet for many reasons and there could possibly be a more optimal alternative.

[/quote]

Seems like a solid plan. When you look at it though, UD2 is a carb cycling plan. UD2, Troponins way, What your doing, it’s all SOME form of carb cycling. Basically it seems the 2 best ways to get lean are a form of carb cycling or a CKD…thats what I see the most competing bodybuilders do as well.

What did your workout and off days look like as far as calories/pro/carb/fat? Do you have starting and ending stats?

[quote]actionjeff wrote:

Apart from requiring a lot of discipline, the schedule is not very flexible. There are a lot of supplements and nutrition timing stuff. But the combo of the training + nutrition is the hardest part.

Basically, two 1.5- 2hr full body depletion workouts on consecutive days on 1500kcal or whatever is way, way harder than a PSMF or anything else I’ve done. The tension workout preceding the carb-up is also horrible. You REALLY suffer.
[/quote]

I looked at the workouts and didn’t really see how they could possibly take that long but looking at it again I see your supposed to repeat it twice! Damn that is really intense, even with only 60 seconds rest it would take about 1.5 hours. I guess you could superset opposing muscle groups but still…

Tension workout doesn’t seem too bad. Still there likely are easier ways to go about it. I think I’ll still read through it all just out of curiosity.

[quote]stevo_ wrote:

Its not that the diet or training is that hard and I guess it all depends on your situation, you just have to do very specific things on very specific days,

I travel, play sports competitively at a high level, use different gyms with limited equipment, thus making compliance to something rigid very difficult.

I honestly couldn’t tell you exact stats, i did it at least 4 years ago and have lived in two other countries since then so needless to say those log books are long gone.

I would say i went from probably 15% to 10%, and probably gained a bit of muscle a long the way. I certainly didn’t lose any thats for sure. Not very scientific but easily the best results of had from a fat loss program.

If I ever get to a situation where I can train and eat in the same place for a month I would do it again in a heart beat. (assuming i wanted to lose fat)[/quote]

Wow 5% drop in 3.5 weeks? About 3lb. a week is amazing for fat loss. As I mentioned above, it seems it can be very effective, it just takes it’s toll.


#18

I didn’t say 3.5 weeks, but in any case…my point is i thought it was good and if circumstances allow ill do it again.

No worries


#19

[quote]stevo_ wrote:
I didn’t say 3.5 weeks, but in any case…my point is i thought it was good and if circumstances allow ill do it again.

No worries[/quote]

My mistake, i was looking at Actionjeff’s post.

I’m looking at some of the logs/results of people on Lyle’s site and they all seem great…so temping to try! lol but if I did it wouldn’t be for awhile. Maybe next summer since classes will take up most of the social life I’d have anyway :frowning: