U.S. Invading Venezuela?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Varqanir wrote:

We will continue doing what we are doing, to our peril, surely. There is no alternative that does not involve great austerity and sacrifice, which Americans hate more than they hate the French.

Petroleum supplies will become scarcer, and thus more expensive, and “blood for oil” will start sounding more and more like a fair trade.

Whose blood will it be? Yours? I think not.

As long as its you that has to tell the mothers that, after their sons corpses lie in fields of black gold. That’s what I call freedom, eh?

No, it won’t be, if I can help it. It almost might have been, though. I got out of the Army a few years before the first invasion of Iraq, and a lot of my friends were mobilized. Could have been me.

I doubt it will be you, either. But I can’t make any promises about your sons, brothers, cousins, etc. Nor mine.

Just to clarify, I don’t think this current state of affairs is a good thing, Irish, any more than I assume you do. I am just stating things as I see they are, and as I predict they will continue. If you can see a feasible way out of this situation, please share it with me. Better yet, share it with the Department of Energy and the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

True, I don’t live in the United States anymore, so perhaps it can be said that I have relinquished my right to criticize its actions, but for the record, I love and have always loved America. If I did not, I never would have volunteered to defend her many years ago. At that time, there was a real perceived threat to the nation, and real enemies with nuclear weapons that we were up against.

Today, however, I do not think that I would volunteer to defend the gluttonous standard of living of the only remaining Superpower, nor encourage anyone else to do so. I would bite my tongue before criticizing anyone in the military: my hat is off to the brave men and women who are out there now risking their lives, and I pray they come back alive. I only hope they realize before it’s over just what it is they are fighting &mdash and dying &mdash for.

It ain’t freedom.[/quote]

You have every right to criticize, of course. I jumped to a conclusion after reading your post- it didn’t seem that you minded that this scenario would happen. Apologies.

But I do not think we will war for oil so blatantly. Call it my own anti-corporate agenda, but I think this war is about as blatant as one can possibly get in trying to have a prescence where the oil fields are. However, it is still shrouded and masked by the “Democracy for the poor Iraqis” rhetoric that the administration spews every day; people are finally begining to see through that. I hope.

Don’t be so quick to say that the economy cannot change to something else.

It isn’t going to be done just for the hell of it, that is for sure. I certainly can’t be done if there is no large incentive to do so.

You’d be surprised what can be done when it damned well needs to be done. That doesn’t mean it will happen over night, but neither does it mean that it will never happen.

Fricken doomsday naysayers.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Don’t be so quick to say that the economy cannot change to something else.

It isn’t going to be done just for the hell of it, that is for sure. I certainly can’t be done if there is no large incentive to do so.

You’d be surprised what can be done when it damned well needs to be done. That doesn’t mean it will happen over night, but neither does it mean that it will never happen.

Fricken doomsday naysayers.[/quote]

That was my point, vroom. That a new economy will not happen without a monumental paradigm shift among the American people.

Surely, someday they will come to grips with the reality that their current standard of living is not sustainable, and they will embrace a culture of thrift and sacrifice.

That day is not today, and I doubt it will arrive before more countries are invaded, more cities are bombarded, and more C-130s return to U.S. airstrips loaded with flag-draped coffins.

Check out The End of Suburbia, available at http://www.endofsuburbia.com , as well as The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight by Thom Hartman. These might state my case better than I have done.

Does Venezuela have nice beaches? If they have nice beaches, I say we invade them, take their oil, make them the 51st state, and build All-inclusive resorts on their beaches.

And then with the oil profits, provide free air service to and from the upper 48 states for all Americans.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

You have every right to criticize, of course. I jumped to a conclusion after reading your post- it didn’t seem that you minded that this scenario would happen. Apologies.
[/quote]

Nah, no apologies necessary. I wrote that a bit carelessly, in response to the kid who thought nuclear reactors were the wonder cure for the energy crisis. I can see how it might have been misinterpreted.

Ah, but wars have always been fought under false pretenses. Old men seduce young men with talk of Honor, Glory, Freedom, Liberty, Democracy and Ethnic Purity, but the real agenda has always been the same: Armed robbery. Taking some other poor schmuck’s stuff while waving a flag.

Hell, you’re a fightin’ Irishman. You know the story of Cuchulain and the Red Branch, right? Ulster and Connaught were always invading each other, and the warriors all told themselves it was about honor and glory, but it was really all about cattle and land. Nothing has changed.

As Chesterson said,

For the Great Gaels of Ireland
Are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry
And all their songs are sad.

We’re just as mad, and our wars aren’t nearly as merry.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Does Venezuela have nice beaches? If they have nice beaches, I say we invade them, take their oil, make them the 51st state, and build All-inclusive resorts on their beaches.

And then with the oil profits, provide free air service to and from the upper 48 states for all Americans. [/quote]

Here ya go, rainjack. Playa El Agua, Venezuela.

One of many beauties. Guess that means we have to invade now.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

You have every right to criticize, of course. I jumped to a conclusion after reading your post- it didn’t seem that you minded that this scenario would happen. Apologies.

Nah, no apologies necessary. I wrote that a bit carelessly, in response to the kid who thought nuclear reactors were the wonder cure for the energy crisis. I can see how it might have been misinterpreted.

But I do not think we will war for oil so blatantly. Call it my own anti-corporate agenda, but I think this war is about as blatant as one can possibly get in trying to have a prescence where the oil fields are. However, it is still shrouded and masked by the “Democracy for the poor Iraqis” rhetoric that the administration spews every day; people are finally begining to see through that. I hope.

Ah, but wars have always been fought under false pretenses. Old men seduce young men with talk of Honor, Glory, Freedom, Liberty, Democracy and Ethnic Purity, but the real agenda has always been the same: Armed robbery. Taking some other poor schmuck’s stuff while waving a flag.

Hell, you’re a fightin’ Irishman. You know the story of Cuchulain and the Red Branch, right? Ulster and Connaught were always invading each other, and the warriors all told themselves it was about honor and glory, but it was really all about cattle and land. Nothing has changed.

As Chesterson said,

For the Great Gaels of Ireland
Are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry
And all their songs are sad.

We’re just as mad, and our wars aren’t nearly as merry.
[/quote]

Well said.

The Old Lie: “Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.”

[quote]vroom wrote:

Fricken doomsday naysayers.[/quote]

I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Permaculture movement, vroom, but I had the pleasure of hosting the co-founder, David Holmgren, at my house for three days last May. Through his guidance, I am retrofitting my own house to be independent of electricical, water, heating, cooling and sewage systems, while designing a permaculture garden that should make me at least partially independent of the grocery store.

By your definition, David is another “fricken doomsday naysayer”, but unlike many who just sit around and whine and wish for someone to do something about it, he actually proposes a solution. You might be interested in reading his latest book, Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability. You may find that you and I are on the same side, after all.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
WMD wrote:
Varqanir wrote:

…great austerity and sacrifice, which Americans hate more than they hate the French.

FRENCH!!!

You know, WMD, it’s really funny, but as I was writing that, and trying to think of something that Americans hated more than austerity and sacrifice, the first thing that came to mind was your “fucking faggot-ass French!” comments from the Gun Control thread. I swear to God. And now you turn out to be the one to respond. Perfect. :)[/quote]

Glad I could help. :wink:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
WMD wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
florin wrote:
Tell me: how do you manufacture chemical fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides (without which modern American agriculture would disappear) without petroleum?

Horseshit. Or bullshit or pigshit. Whatever you prefer.

You forgot chickenshit and batshit. Yes, absolutely. manure will take care of the fertilizer problem to a small extent (small because of the logistical problem of moving all that shit around), but not the pest and weed problem.

American agriculture has hybridized most food plant species to the point that they cannot survive without a massive influx of energy, something on the order of 30 calories of petroleum energy spent for each calorie of food energy produced.

How do you convert all the airplanes, trains, ships, trucks and cars that are currently in use to utilize hydrogen or nuclear-generated “cheap” electricity?

Horses, dammit. Or cows or pigs. Whatever you like. Except sheep. Sheep are right out.

Well, since much of American farmland is becoming desert, don’t rule out camels.

See, though, this was my entire point. Barring a return to pre-industrial technology, (i.e. completely organic farming, animal traction and transportation, etc.) which no true red-blooded, teevee watchin’, Suburban-drivin’, Big Mac munchin’ American is ever going to vote for, the United States is going to be remain dependent upon petroleum, the supply of which is steadily decreasing.

It will always be cheaper to invade and rob other countries of their petroleum than to develop viable energy alternatives (not to mention much more stimulating for national morale), and as long as the United States has the military power to do so, then it will continue to do so.

How can I have a nice day now? :stuck_out_tongue:

By convincing yourself that you live in the greatest nation ever in the history of mankind, and however bad things might be, well gosh darnit, everything’s gonna be O.K. in the end.

Seems to work for most people.[/quote]

I keep trying to convince myself that the US is perfect and infallible, but I think I bought the wrong Kool-Aid. Do you use grape or cherry? And how much cyanide do I add to the mix?

I feel your pain, all joking aside. I think you are on target as to the standard American attitude toward our energy problems (big mac eating, Suburban driving, ass growing slugs). I feel pretty helpless watching it all.

Varq,

I’ve always been of the opinion that we could spend/exert a bit more ourselves so that we don’t rely so much on some central infrastructure.

However, we can only do that if we can step back and stop having to have dual income families working all hours of the day to afford consumer nirvana, or at least make payments on the debt.

Not that I don’t appreciate a good consumer nirvana experience from time to time!

I usually recommend a nice apricot schnapps. It seems to complement the bitter almond taste of the cyanide.

Yeah, that’s where I was at nearly fifteen years ago. George I was president, and we had invaded Panama (so much for that pesky canal problem) and Iraq. Gasoline was under 2 dollars a gallon, the Berlin Wall had come down, and the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse. Looking back, America was still a pretty good place to live, but I didn’t like the way the wind was blowing, so I got the hell out.

Am I a traitor or a coward? Perhaps. But then so were the Germans who fled Germany in the 30s, and the Russians who fled Russia as Stalin was coming to power.

I do not mean to imply that the United States is going the way of Nazi Germany or the USSR. No, rather we are going the way of Imperial Rome. Centurians stationed in all corners of the world, beating back the barbarian hordes; horrendous inflation brought about by the debasement of the currency; collapse of agriculture and industry due to cheap imports from North Africa and a shortage of domestic labor; urban sprawl, and free bread and circuses for the teeming masses.

The end of the Roman Empire came about when the Goths besieged the capital city, blockading the Tiber River so that the grain shipments from Africa couldn’t get through. Germanic feudalism and the rise of Islam came shortly afterward.

Maybe the American Empire will meet its demise in similar fashion, maybe it will not. But history tells us that all empires eventually end, to be replaced by leaner, hungrier contenders.

Now, I wouldn’t advocate expatriation for anyone who hasn’t given the matter a great deal of thought, but you might try an extended holiday overseas (anywhere but France, I know). Seeing your homeland from the outside for a month or two may be an eye-opener.

V

[quote]WMD wrote:
…I feel your pain, all joking aside. I think you are on target as to the standard American attitude toward our energy problems (big mac eating, Suburban driving, ass growing slugs). I feel pretty helpless watching it all.[/quote]

It is not going to change until there is an economic driving force.

When it becomes too expensive to drive a Suburban people will stop.

This is not an American attitude, it is a universal to all of mankind and likely most other species.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Varq,

I’ve always been of the opinion that we could spend/exert a bit more ourselves so that we don’t rely so much on some central infrastructure.[/quote]

See? We are on the same side.

The United States and Canada were settled by tough people who relied very little on central infrastructure, but who carved out an existence for themselves with the tools they brought with them, and the stones, wood and earth around them. It would indeed not hurt to try and recover a bit of that independent pioneer spirit.

It’s a vicious circle, to be sure. “We work at jobs we hate to pay for shit we don’t need.”

In my case, I have no job, no debt, and I own very little shit that I don’t need. I buy food, tools and books, and clothing when the need arises. My last major purchase was my Land Cruiser, for which I paid cash. The ownership of an SUV does, I realize, fly in the face of my other convictions, but I primarily use it to haul building materials and firewood, and anyway next year I plan to convert it to run on methanol.

It’s all a hell of a lot of work, but very satisfying.

OK, um…he’s talking about one of our many wargame plans – I think we did this one with Spain, but I’m not certain. Chavez is just looking for a little attention and to stir up a little more anti-Americanism in the populace. Damn little bitch.

Hasn’t he been assisinated yet?

Damn.

While perhaps somewhat humorous, that is so wrong and crosses so many important principles with respect to speech, dissent, policing the world and so on.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
WMD wrote:I keep trying to convince myself that the US is perfect and infallible, but I think I bought the wrong Kool-Aid. Do you use grape or cherry? And how much cyanide do I add to the mix?

I usually recommend a nice apricot schnapps. It seems to complement the bitter almond taste of the cyanide.

I feel your pain, all joking aside. I think you are on target as to the standard American attitude toward our energy problems (big mac eating, Suburban driving, ass growing slugs). I feel pretty helpless watching it all.

Yeah, that’s where I was at nearly fifteen years ago. George I was president, and we had invaded Panama (so much for that pesky canal problem) and Iraq. Gasoline was under 2 dollars a gallon, the Berlin Wall had come down, and the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapse. Looking back, America was still a pretty good place to live, but I didn’t like the way the wind was blowing, so I got the hell out.

Am I a traitor or a coward? Perhaps. But then so were the Germans who fled Germany in the 30s, and the Russians who fled Russia as Stalin was coming to power.

I do not mean to imply that the United States is going the way of Nazi Germany or the USSR. No, rather we are going the way of Imperial Rome. Centurians stationed in all corners of the world, beating back the barbarian hordes; horrendous inflation brought about by the debasement of the currency; collapse of agriculture and industry due to cheap imports from North Africa and a shortage of domestic labor; urban sprawl, and free bread and circuses for the teeming masses.

The end of the Roman Empire came about when the Goths besieged the capital city, blockading the Tiber River so that the grain shipments from Africa couldn’t get through. Germanic feudalism and the rise of Islam came shortly afterward.

Maybe the American Empire will meet its demise in similar fashion, maybe it will not. But history tells us that all empires eventually end, to be replaced by leaner, hungrier contenders.

[/quote]

Nice post. I wonder if George II knows how to play a fiddle.

i think we’ve all missed a glaring opportunity right here in our country.

tap into the liposuction phenomenon, drum it all up, refine it at the local refinery and turn that into fuel! it’s got all the necessary ingredients, without the millions of years of fermentation. if you’ve been diagnosed with excess of 25% BF, you gotta go in and get sucked.

see? we don’t need to invade anyone anymore with the sheer volume of fatties in our own country! made in america will once again mean something!!! tap that ass will mean something else (um, see the longer needle for fat asses in another thread; i’m tying two treads into one solution, woo hoo!)

success, if you just look far enough ahead.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Does Venezuela have nice beaches? If they have nice beaches, I say we invade them, take their oil, make them the 51st state, and build All-inclusive resorts on their beaches.

And then with the oil profits, provide free air service to and from the upper 48 states for all Americans. [/quote]

Not only do they have nice beaches, they also have some fine-ass women too. And these women enjoy being women. They revel in womanhood and don’t mind displaying the goods at every opportunity. I’ve been to Venezuela 3 times for business and I am amazed each time the clothing that is worn by women in the facilities I visited.

[quote]kroby wrote:
i think we’ve all missed a glaring opportunity right here in our country.

tap into the liposuction phenomenon, drum it all up, refine it at the local refinery and turn that into fuel! it’s got all the necessary ingredients, without the millions of years of fermentation. if you’ve been diagnosed with excess of 25% BF, you gotta go in and get sucked.

see? we don’t need to invade anyone anymore with the sheer volume of fatties in our own country! made in america will once again mean something!!! tap that ass will mean something else (um, see the longer needle for fat asses in another thread; i’m tying two treads into one solution, woo hoo!)

success, if you just look far enough ahead.[/quote]

There you go, natural oil problem solved. Just line up all the fatasses and get to work. Just think, fat people will become a hot commodity and being fat will be symbolic with money.