Condi told Saakshvilli to not submit to Russian provocations. The Russians were arming Osetian rebel groups that terrorized Georgian villages, provoking Saakashvilli to attack. And eventually he did. So no, we were not responsible here.
The reason Putin is doing this whole thing is Kosovo. Just to show the west that if we can recognize some rebelious separation as a state, so can he. There’s simply zero geopolitical value in Osetia.
[quote]flyboy51v wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
How would you like it if the Russians decided to arm and train a smally ally on your border?
They have been for about 40 years. Where you been?
The question was, how do you like it?
Listen Droopy … what you fail to acknowledge or understand is that they are autocratic thugs. We are a liberal democracy. They have been conquering and subjugating their neighbors for a thousand years.
We have been liberating people for hundreds (Belgium included … on more than one occasion).
We spend billions and billions to relieve disease and hunger in Africa. They support and prop up the dictators in Africa that are practicing ethnic cleansing and preventing that aid from getting to their people. We’ve maintained the peace in europe and asia for 50 years.
In other words … what WE do isn’t equal to what THEY do. Providing a young democracy with the means to protect itself from an invasion by the russians is not the same as the russians arming a brutal communist dictatorship (cuba) that oppresses it’s own people and forces them to live in poverty. Cuba was a relatively prosperous island prior to Castro.
Moral relativism isn’t a pretty thing …[/quote]
Neither is blind nationalism. I generally agree with you, we’re not the same as the Russians, certainly not the Soviets. But on Georgia you are either really naive or ill-informed. Saakashvili is not leading some idyllic democracy against Russian “autocracy” (a word that everyone uses incorrectly and certainly doesn’t apply to Russia). He’s an elected authoritarian, just like Putin, who uses force against dissent, and won the last election with 96% of the vote, which is just a bit of a red flag. And the Russians may evoke Soviet glory, but STALIN is a national hero in Georgia, and Saakashvili’s wife even compares him to Stalin. So don’t kid yourself. Our SOBs are often no better than their SOBs.
[quote]flyboy51v wrote:
Listen Droopy … what you fail to acknowledge or understand is that they are autocratic thugs. We are a liberal democracy. They have been conquering and subjugating their neighbors for a thousand years. [/quote]
To be fair, the US hasn’t been around that long.
And in its short existence, the country managed to subjugate and conquer more than its fair share.
[quote]We have been liberating people for hundreds (Belgium included … on more than one occasion).
We spend billions and billions to relieve disease and hunger in Africa. They support and prop up the dictators in Africa that are practicing ethnic cleansing and preventing that aid from getting to their people. We’ve maintained the peace in europe and asia for 50 years. [/quote]
And yet, for some reason, it’s the American flag that I see burnt all over the world.
You wouldn’t happen to be working for the US government, would you?
It is.
Both countries look after their own interests. With the notable difference that Russia sticks to its borders while the US considers the whole world as its playground.
What “democracy”?
The American government armed more brutal dictatorships than I can count on my two hands.
But I don’t suppose that was part of your brainwashing curriculum.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I cannot believe how many people parrot the Russian propaganda.
I am not parroting anyone’s propaganda. I am just saying you can’t just take the US government’s side because it has decided to give military aid to a country that then attacks another.
Who ever pulled the trigger first is wrong. It is not like Ossetia was posturing to attack Georgia.
They were shelling Georgia to provoke a response. The South Ossetian “freedom fighters” raped and looted under the nose of the Russian “peacekeepers”. This shit is being totally ignored by our media.
Now who is parrotting propaganda?
You are. Learn the facts or STFU.[/quote]
Where did you get your facts from stupid?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
How would you like it if the Russians decided to arm and train a smally ally on your border?
They have been for about 40 years. Where you been?
The question was, how do you like it?
Ooh. The Belgian Waffle shows up to defend his comrades.
[/quote]
If you want to defend your comrades, you can always enlist. I’m sure the Georgian defence forces have even lower standards than the US military, so there’s a slight chance you might qualify.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
How would you like it if the Russians decided to arm and train a smally ally on your border?
They have been for about 40 years. Where you been?
The question was, how do you like it?
Ooh. The Belgian Waffle shows up to defend his comrades.
If you want to defend your comrades, you can always enlist. I’m sure the Georgian defence forces have even lower standards than the US military, so there’s a slight chance you might qualify.[/quote]
Coming from a guy who is such a pussy that he makes his dad crawl up on ladders while he sits on the ground, runs his mouth, and holds it - I have to wonder how my military status is any of your fucking business.
I don’t see you taking any of your advice, and joining the anti-american forces. Why is that?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
How would you like it if the Russians decided to arm and train a smally ally on your border?
They have been for about 40 years. Where you been?
The question was, how do you like it?
Obviously we feel it does not warrant a full military invasion and occupation or we would have done so.
Why is it correct for the Russians to arm and train a small ally on our border but not correct for us to do the same on theirs?
If they did not want us meddling in their sphere of interest, maybe they should have stayed the hell away from ours.[/quote]
It was the cold war then. You might have heard it mention before.
But now, I thought the US was looking for strategical partners in the global war against terrorism. So it might not be a good idea to piss of any potential allies in the area. But that’s just us Europeans again, thinking. Not you Yanks, acting.
[quote]flyboy51v wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
How would you like it if the Russians decided to arm and train a smally ally on your border?
They have been for about 40 years. Where you been?
The question was, how do you like it?
Listen Droopy … what you fail to acknowledge or understand is that they are autocratic thugs. We are a liberal democracy. They have been conquering and subjugating their neighbors for a thousand years.
We have been liberating people for hundreds (Belgium included … on more than one occasion).[/quote]
Are you parotting propaganda again?
[quote]We spend billions and billions to relieve disease and hunger in Africa. [/quote] No you don’t. You like to think you do, but you don’t.
Does that peace include Korea and Vietnam?
Well, that’s not really what you did. They weren’t able to defend themselves. You gave them the impression they would be able to. You gave them the impression they could count on you. But when push came to shove, you’ve let them down. There wasn’t much that could have been done, but then you should have told them that, instead you encouraged them to provoke (or to be provoked by, depending which side you believe).
No it was not. The country was illiterate, child death was rampant. It was a third world country
I agree. Stupidity and lies are also pretty nasty
[quote]lixy wrote:
To be fair, the US hasn’t been around that long.
And in its short existence, the country managed to subjugate and conquer more than its fair share.
You wouldn’t happen to be working for the US government, would you?
Both countries look after their own interests. With the notable difference that Russia sticks to its borders while the US considers the whole world as its playground.
The American government armed more brutal dictatorships than I can count on my two hands.
But I don’t suppose that was part of your brainwashing curriculum.[/quote]
More propaganda fictional b.s.
Name all the countries we subjugated and conquered. Who, Puerto Rico?
You wouldn’t happen to be working for the Iranian government would you?
The Russians were also arming dictators in Asia, Africa, Middle East, Central and South America, and more than I can count on my two hands as well. So how’s that for sticking to one’s borders?
You are brainwashed as well.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
How would you like it if the Russians decided to arm and train a smally ally on your border?
They have been for about 40 years. Where you been?
The question was, how do you like it?
Ooh. The Belgian Waffle shows up to defend his comrades.
If you want to defend your comrades, you can always enlist. I’m sure the Georgian defence forces have even lower standards than the US military, so there’s a slight chance you might qualify.
Coming from a guy who is such a pussy that he makes his dad crawl up on ladders while he sits on the ground, runs his mouth, and holds it - I have to wonder how my military status is any of your fucking business.
I don’t see you taking any of your advice, and joining the anti-american forces. Why is that?
[/quote]
I can come over and kick your butt any time moron.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
How would you like it if the Russians decided to arm and train a smally ally on your border?
They have been for about 40 years. Where you been?
The question was, how do you like it?
Ooh. The Belgian Waffle shows up to defend his comrades.
If you want to defend your comrades, you can always enlist. I’m sure the Georgian defence forces have even lower standards than the US military, so there’s a slight chance you might qualify.
Coming from a guy who is such a pussy that he makes his dad crawl up on ladders while he sits on the ground, runs his mouth, and holds it - I have to wonder how my military status is any of your fucking business.
I don’t see you taking any of your advice, and joining the anti-american forces. Why is that?
I can come over and kick your butt any time moron.[/quote]
Really? That would be awesome.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
It was the cold war then. You might have heard it mention before.
But now, I thought the US was looking for strategical partners in the global war against terrorism. So it might not be a good idea to piss of any potential allies in the area. But that’s just us Europeans again, thinking. Not you Yanks, acting.[/quote]
Why does it being the cold war excuse the Russians for intruding on our sphere of interest? The topic is US caused Georgia Conflict? and I do not believe that we caused this just because we were arming a country which was conquered by Russia and assimilated, a country which was separated from Russia itself.
If the Russians began arming rebels in Poland and claiming half of their territory, would you also say this was ok?
We may have backed the Kosovars, though I do not think this was a good strategy, but we did not make Kosovo the 51st State.
You may be right on about the war on terror and gaining potential allies, but the Russians were and still are our partners in the war on terror. They said this with their own words. They were an ally in the war on terror when it suited them to devistate another potential separtist country and set up a puppet dictatorship there.
So for those of you who see Russia as some great liberator, protecting the rights of the separtists, remember what they did to the Chechens, as if you even give a crap about them.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
I can come over and kick your butt any time moron.
Really? That would be awesome. [/quote]
Please, PLEASE get video of this.
Please.
Fucking A. Can this site (or any, for that matter) ever have a genuine political discussion without it devolving into insults, histrionics and name-calling? Jeezus.
Bottom line regarding Georgia/Russia: The Russian-backed (and armed) rebels in South Ossetia, which is technically part of Georgia but wants to break away, had been provoking Georgia for a long time by shelling Georgian territory, committing smaller terrorist acts, etc. This was the Russians’ way of trying to bait the Georgians into making the “first” move so that they (the Russians) could use it as an excuse to attack and take over South Ossetia AND, more importantly, Abkhazia. South Ossetia is of little geopolitical value but Abkhazia (which also wants to secede from Georgia) is of MAJOR geopolitical value (oil, pipelines, natural resources).
Russia wanted to occupy S. Ossetia and Abkhazia so as to essential separate them from Georgia, AND, just as importantly, they wanted to make a point to the U.S. – because of our dicking around in their backyard supporting Kosovo’s independence (stupid), supporting democracy in the Ukraine (smart) and trying to install utterly useless missiles in Poland and Czech (stupid) – that they could still throw their weight around in the region.
The generally understood chain of events from people in the know and involved in the region for a long time is that the U.S. warned Georgia numerous times NOT to take the bait, because Russia had military formations lined up WAITING to invade far ahead of time. (We knew this because satellites see all of this stuff nowadays). But Saakashvili is apparently a bit of a hot-head and eventually had had enough, and made the worst move in recent European history.
Incidentally, as I understand it, most of our military training of the Georgians was by our Special Forces working with them in the Pankisi Gorge region, which is an area where Islamic fundamentalists are quite present and active. Our SF had been helping them try to fight the terrorist-types in Pankisi, NOT preparing them to fight the Russians, which any idiot knows would be futile.
As for which country is more “holy” regarding its overall history on the international stage, both countries have done plenty of fucked up shit and supported plenty of shitheaded regimes over the years (and continue to).
The Russians supported (or support) the North Vietnamese, communist Chinese, North Koreans, Cubans, Sudanese government, plenty of shitty dictators and groups in Africa, the FARC in Colombia, the Sandinistas in El Salvador, all of the communist puppet states in Eastern/Central Europe during the Cold War etc., etc. Much of this originated in the Cold War and still continues.
The U.S. has also supported lots fucked up and evil governments and groups, albeit for different reasons: The Al Saud monarchy in Saudi Arabia, Mubarak in Egypt, Qadaffi in Libya (we’re “friends” now), the Contras in El Salvador, certain “leaders” in Haiti, Saddam in the 80’s, the Shah of Iran (debatable as to how awful he was, but many say he was), various dictators in Africa, former Sunni insurgents in Iraq (many of whom were part of Saddam’s military/intelligence and are now part of the “Awakening” against Al Qaeda in Iraq), arguably the Israelis, etc., etc.
Both nations do and have done what is in their national interest. For a while (during the Cold War) much of that national interest was as simple as countering the other side (us against the Soviets and vice-versa). But it also sometimes has to do with strategic resources (oil, pipelines, control of certain transportation routes like straights, etc.).
NOW, if you are going to ask, ON THE WHOLE, who was more “good” and who was more “evil?” That’s a no-brainer. The U.S. was more “good” and the Russians/Soviets were clearly more (if not entirely) “evil.”
Why? Because during that entire Cold War period (which is most of the history we’re talking about here), the main thing that the Russians/Soviets were supporting and looking to install were COMMUNIST/AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES. The main thing the U.S. was looking to install were DEMOCRACIES. One IS inherently better than the other because, assuming it’s done even remotely correctly, a democracy is in line with allowing human nature to operate the way it wants to and the way it should, and supports basic human rights first and foremost. Yeah, you can point out all kinds of flaws and examples of those, no argument, but anyone with a fucking brain in their head, given the choice and the ability, chooses to live in what is now essentially “The West” (free, democratic nations) as opposed to living under a communist regime or an authoritarian regime. Hence all the immigrants to the U.S. and Western Europe.
A communist/authoritarian regime, by contrast tramples on every single bit of human rights, freedom, ability to better oneself, and overall happiness, essentially. It is evil and it is wrong. It is also wildly ineffective and unsuccessful as a system of government and economy when compared to free societies.
Did the U.S. support democracies around the world SOLEY for touchy-feeley “Let’s support human rights!” reasons? No, self-interest often played a big part as well, as we wanted (a.) trading partners (and we knew free economies thrived, and thus traded, much more successfully than communist states) and (b.) to prevent the Soviets from taking control of or becoming too chummy with certain regimes so that they couldn’t install missiles there and point them at us, nor spread communism further throughout a given region of the world.
Are there cases where we’ve done things PURELY for humanitarian reasons? Yeah. Somalia in the early '90s, Bosnia, etc., etc.
But overall, despite all of the evil regimes that we’ve supported to achieve our goal – and I’m not saying it was right or ok – the U.S.'s overall GOAL was on the right side of history, and was one that aimed to achieve something that, undeniably, was GOOD for people: Freedom as opposed to totalitarianism. The Russians/Soviets have supported just the opposite.
(Note: We still support or put up with totalitarianism (see the Middle East) when it suits our purposes and scares us less than any other alternative, no doubt. But we’ve done a LOT more “right,” and the Russians have done a LOT more “wrong”).
Great overview. Excellent work. You take it from here.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
How would you like it if the Russians decided to arm and train a smally ally on your border?
They have been for about 40 years. Where you been?
The question was, how do you like it?
Ooh. The Belgian Waffle shows up to defend his comrades.
If you want to defend your comrades, you can always enlist. I’m sure the Georgian defence forces have even lower standards than the US military, so there’s a slight chance you might qualify.
Coming from a guy who is such a pussy that he makes his dad crawl up on ladders while he sits on the ground, runs his mouth, and holds it - I have to wonder how my military status is any of your fucking business.
I don’t see you taking any of your advice, and joining the anti-american forces. Why is that?
I can come over and kick your butt any time moron.[/quote]
Oh brother, looks like somebody accidentally kicked over a dried up shit pile and let wreckless out again.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I cannot believe how many people parrot the Russian propaganda.
I am not parroting anyone’s propaganda. I am just saying you can’t just take the US government’s side because it has decided to give military aid to a country that then attacks another.
Who ever pulled the trigger first is wrong. It is not like Ossetia was posturing to attack Georgia.
They were shelling Georgia to provoke a response. The South Ossetian “freedom fighters” raped and looted under the nose of the Russian “peacekeepers”. This shit is being totally ignored by our media.
Now who is parrotting propaganda?
You are. Learn the facts or STFU.
Where did you get your facts from stupid?[/quote]
The people that actually went to Georgia to see what is happening. Start with Michael Totten and keep reading. There is absolutely no question Russia orchestrated this thing.