T Nation

Twice a Day Training

I am currently in a bit of a predicament and i need some educated advice. My job requires me to drive an hour and a half to work and the same home everyday. I work 10 hours a day by the way 7a.m-5:30p.m. So needless to say going before work is out of the question. However, about a month ago i found a rat-hole gym about 10 minutes from my jobsite and i started going in the evenings.

I am not lacking energy or anything its just the fact that i don’t get home until around 8:30-9p.m. after a good training session and that hardly gives me enough time to eat and do some at home “workouts” with my fiancee.

So I need advice on whether or not it would even be worth working out twice a day. Once during my lunch break which i could stretch to about a 35 minute workout, and then once again after work for about 30 minutes that way i can get home at a descent hour. If you disagree with this program let me know, some reasoning would be nice. But if you think this can work could you give me a good routine to follow for a 2x day training. I am curious as well to see what kind of results i can get out of this.

This job will only be going on for about another month and a half so i just need a program that will suffice for that time period, i dont plan on using this style of training forever. Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Chad Waterbury has some training programs for this. He believes it works fairly well. Who knows until you try it.

Working out twice a day can be extremely productive. Just change the rep ranges: eg 4x10 morning 10x4 afternoon. Watch your motivation to make sure you don’t burn out.

[quote]kowface28 wrote:
I am currently in a bit of a predicament and i need some educated advice. My job requires me to drive an hour and a half to work and the same home everyday. I work 10 hours a day by the way 7a.m-5:30p.m. So needless to say going before work is out of the question. However, about a month ago i found a rat-hole gym about 10 minutes from my jobsite and i started going in the evenings.

I am not lacking energy or anything its just the fact that i don’t get home until around 8:30-9p.m. after a good training session and that hardly gives me enough time to eat and do some at home “workouts” with my fiancee.

So I need advice on whether or not it would even be worth working out twice a day. Once during my lunch break which i could stretch to about a 35 minute workout, and then once again after work for about 30 minutes that way i can get home at a descent hour. If you disagree with this program let me know, some reasoning would be nice. But if you think this can work could you give me a good routine to follow for a 2x day training. I am curious as well to see what kind of results i can get out of this.

This job will only be going on for about another month and a half so i just need a program that will suffice for that time period, i dont plan on using this style of training forever. Thanks in advance for any feedback. [/quote]

One of the best ways to increase gains in strength or muscle mass rapidly is to train twice a day. This concept has been used by athletes from a variety of sports for many decades. There are numerous reasons that explain why training twice a day is the shortcut to gains. From a physical perspective, anabolism is maximized. Because testosterone and cortisol both come from the same raw material (pregnenolone), you want to avoid long workouts that deplete the pregnenolone and interfere with testosterone production. From a psychological perspective, training twice a day allows for greater concentration during workouts. No matter how driven you are, excessively long workouts affect your mind.

Eventually you will not look forward to your workouts, and your desire to train hard will be affected. When adding an additional workout it’s important to keep both training sessions short. Excluding warm-up time, your workouts should initially be no more than 40 minutes in length (even shorter if possible). Also be sure to sequence properly.

AM: Compound exercises
PM: Isolation exercises

For Legs you could do Squats AM and Leg Extensions PM (jest for example)

For reps I would do something like
AM: 4-6 reps
PM: 12-20 reps

This is what Charles Poliquin reccomends.

Hope this helps.

[quote]hexx wrote:
Working out twice a day can be extremely productive. Just change the rep ranges: eg 4x10 morning 10x4 afternoon. Watch your motivation to make sure you don’t burn out. [/quote]

Yeah, the other way around, 10x4 morning, 4x10 afternoon, or watever

thanks la for shedding some light on the subject for me. One thing I am a little confused about is the split from one muscle to another. You used Legs as an example, to do squats in A.M. and extensions in P.M. Should i be training the same muscle both times just doing different types of exercises each time. An example of my understanding would be:

A.M. Chest & Tris
4x8-10- Incline Dumbell Press
4x8-10- Flat Dumbell Press
4x8-10- Close-Grip Bench
4x8-10- Skull-Crushers

P.M.
10x4- Seated Flys
10x4- Incline Flys
10x4- Rope Pulldowns (For Tri)
10x4- Single Dumbell Tricep Extensions

I may have this completely wrong, I have been a little confused on whether or not it is ok to do the same muscle just different movements 2x a day. If this is hurting me more than helping what about chest in a.m. and tris in p.m.

i think the way you’ve set it out is fine, all your doing is splitting up the day’s volume into two different sessions

[quote]kowface28 wrote:
thanks la for shedding some light on the subject for me. One thing I am a little confused about is the split from one muscle to another. You used Legs as an example, to do squats in A.M. and extensions in P.M. Should i be training the same muscle both times just doing different types of exercises each time. An example of my understanding would be:

A.M. Chest & Tris
4x8-10- Incline Dumbell Press
4x8-10- Flat Dumbell Press
4x8-10- Close-Grip Bench
4x8-10- Skull-Crushers

P.M.
10x4- Seated Flys
10x4- Incline Flys
10x4- Rope Pulldowns (For Tri)
10x4- Single Dumbell Tricep Extensions

I may have this completely wrong, I have been a little confused on whether or not it is ok to do the same muscle just different movements 2x a day. If this is hurting me more than helping what about chest in a.m. and tris in p.m.
[/quote]

10x4 is more neurally demanding, I like your exercise choices but, I would switch the reps and sets. Also with a 2x daily you may need to decrease the volume a bit (although that aspect is highly individual). Another thing in general, flyes and extensions would not really be suited to low reps. The movement will somewhat dictate the reps (e.g. you wouldn’t do a 1rm on concentration curls but, you may on scott curls (infact for structural balance it can be used as part of the evaluation).

I would do 4-6 AM and 12-20 PM and I don’t go to failure on accessory work (hypertrophy would be gained through cumulative fatigue). I like that you are thinkking things through and it was close, just make those few changes IMO.

Thanks again La, really helpful stuff and i will keep all of that in mind. Im going to give that 4-6 am and 12-20 pm a try for now and see how that works out. I am going to keep a progress chart and pics, to myself for now, just to see how well this will work out. Thanks again for the advice, and i will post my other days workouts so you can see if those exercises are a good choice as well.

Sounds good happy to help anytime! Good luck and we will look forward to hearing about your progress!

Like Laroyal Rx’s I’d keep your big shit in the morning and keep it to 3-5 reps. a good 5x3 on any compound movement will get you ready to do more TUT sets of isolation or smaller movements (flys etc) in the evening.

Don’t be afraid to do only one lift in the mornings. For a 35 minute training session a solid, heavy and well done 5x5, 7x4 or 5/3/2/5/3/2 will be worth a thousand hastily done shitty sets of 8 or 10.

Do well what you can,

-chris

How would your diet look with twice a day training? Two PWO shakes, meals rich in protein/carbs?

Apologies for the hijack.

For nutrition around workout, it would do something like this:

· PROTEIN: 0.3 G/LB both workouts AM/PM

· CARBS 60:40(AM/PM): Start point 0.5 G/LB

BTW, the ratio depends on several factors (intensity, volume,etc)

I´m planning to workout twice too. But I think I won´t intake carbs PWO in my lean mass phase.I´ll start from here more or less:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2392833&pageNo=0#bottom

My concern is about Glutamine, BCAA and glycine. I´m taking 40 G of BCAA in my workouts and maybe it´ll up a bit. The workouts last 50 minutes right now. When I´ll split twice, I don´t know if intake the same amount both am/pm workouts or split it too.

I set up glutamine at 0.2 G/LB PWO, so I´m wondering if Ifollow the same ratio 60:40 or not.

And finally, I don´t know if high intake of glycine will be able to affect my pm workout.

[quote]michell wrote:
For nutrition around workout, it would do something like this:

· PROTEIN: 0.3 G/LB both workouts AM/PM

· CARBS 60:40(AM/PM): Start point 0.5 G/LB

BTW, the ratio depends on several factors (intensity, volume,etc)

I´m planning to workout twice too. But I think I won´t intake carbs PWO in my lean mass phase.I´ll start from here more or less:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2392833&pageNo=0#bottom

My concern is about Glutamine, BCAA and glycine. I´m taking 40 G of BCAA in my workouts and maybe it´ll up a bit. The workouts last 50 minutes right now. When I´ll split twice, I don´t know if intake the same amount both am/pm workouts or split it too.

I set up glutamine at 0.2 G/LB PWO, so I´m wondering if Ifollow the same ratio 60:40 or not.

And finally, I don´t know if high intake of glycine will be able to affect my pm workout.

[/quote]
Michell is right in line with what I generally reccomend as well and I personally know from pm’ing with him he has a lot to offer the site and really does his research!

The post workout glutamine does not need to be in a 60/40 ratio. I use .33/kglbm added to whatever drink I am using at the time. The glycine shouldn’t negativly impact your PM workout just remember if you are going to try this, start with a low dose and build up. Too much off the bat can make you feel a little queasy. Finally if you are splitting your workouts I would absolutly add a second pre/during/post workout protocol.

I´m plainnig to do something like this:

General workout:

am: compound pm: isolate
or
am: heavy pm: moderate
or
am: regular pm: eccentric

With intensification and accumulation phases

Nutrition:

P: 2.0 G/LB BW*
F: 1.25 G/LB BW

Both AM and PM workouts:

BCAA: 0.2 G/LB BW (don´t count for overall protein*)AND GO UP
GLUTAMINE: O.2 G/LB BW (don´t count for overall protein*)
GLICINE: 0.1 G/LB BW (don´t count for overall protein*)
PROTEIN: 0.3 G/LB BW (count*)

WITH MEALS: 5 G GLUTAMINE AND 5 G LEUCINE** (don´t count for overall protein*)

** I´m not sure if it can be effective sience there aren´t any carbs in meals. Maybe I´ll change it for 5 grams of BCAA between meals.

I don´t have any porblems with glycine. My liver can affort high amount. My concern was about in relax too much the SNC for second workout.

Great thread…interesting stuff.

Michell…I’m assuming you’re trying to loose (just the fact that you’re avoiding carbs PWO)

[quote]Trenchant wrote:
Great thread…interesting stuff.

Michell…I’m assuming you’re trying to loose (just the fact that you’re avoiding carbs PWO)[/quote]

No, That´s my start point for lean mass gain. The reason behind it, is because I´m poor insuline sensivity, so it´s a possible option I´m planning, try put lean mass with this macros. If you look at my fat intake, is 1.25 g/lb bw. I´m 0.5 right now, so when I fininsh my lose phase, I´ll increase energetic macro slowly. As far as protein´s concern, I´ll go up to 2.0 g/Lb too. I don´t count BCAA, glutamine, glycine in this stuff.

I will have carbs every 5 days. I have every 7 right now.

Said that, nutrition is a variable will depend on training too. I have not clear how planning it, I have some ideas, but I´m focus in my present lose phase. However the early guidelines will be the main structure.

I like to hear from other people that are training 2x a day. I think I am going to do just 3 compound workouts in the a.m. and my isolation movements in the p.m. My other workouts look like this:

A.M.-Shoulders & Legs
Squats- 6x4-5
Clean and Jerk-6x4-5
Shrugs-6x8-12
(I know there may be some mixed feelings about the clean and jerk exercise but i have always been really good at it, and it wears me out)

P.M.-Shoulders & Legs
Leg Curls-3x8-10
Dumbell Presses-2x8-10
Leg Extensions-3x10
Lateral Raises-3x10
Calf Raises-3x20------------>Superset
Front Dumbell Raises-3x10—>these 2

Workout 2
A.M.-Back & Biceps
Weighted Pull-ups-6x5-6
Barbell Curls-6x4-6
Deadlift-6x3-6

P.M.-Back & Biceps
Bent-Over Row-3x8-10
Dumbell Curl-3x8-10
Lat. Pulldown-3x8-10
Rope Curl-3x8-10
Single-Arm Dumbell Row-3x6-8

My one concern is my diet and my nutrients. Outside of regular food the only supplement i am taking is a protien powder. My diet has been pretty good lately, I’ll go into details later but what i am wondering is if i should increase my intake even though it is about the same amount of actual time spent working out as it is when i only work out once a day. From what everyone has posted i take it i should take in most of my carbs either before or within 2 hours of my a.m. workout and keep them light before and after the p.m. My protein intake will obviously stay pretty much the same other than a pwo after each session.

Doesnt do anyone much good without knowing what my diet is so here goes:

Typical Days Intake:

5:30-6 egg white,tbsp pb, blended drink
8:00-6 oz. grilled chix, 1/2 can kidney bean
10:30-1 can tuna, salad or protein shake
11:45-Workout
12:30-pwo shake, 1/2 cup lowfat choc. milk
1:30-1 can tuna, salad
4:00-6 oz. grilled chix, 1/2 can kidney bean
6:00-small handfull almonds, protein shake
7:00-Workout
8:00-pwo protein shake, 1/2 cup choc. milk
9:00-Varies b/t chicken or fish, sometimes I eat out if fiancee does not cook and in that case it would be 2 burgers from fatburger with egg on each without buns.

I really couldnt give you the nutrient count on my day but im assuming im ok on most but i think my timing is what is wrong. any suggestions?

It’s funny because i eat better at work when i am on a schedule then when i am away from it. I work 7 days a week right now so this schedule is pretty constant.

kowface28

From my point of view your nutrition depends on your current status of body composition and your goal. For this reason is a bit difficult to give a answer or look at your overall plan for advice you.

I mean, we have to know if you have good insuline sensivity for using carbs PWO, or your current body weight for adjusting protein and fat.

As far as your workout is concerned, I think is better design it such as a only one workout, for expemple:

· 3 - 4 movements: maybe a primary, secondary and auxiliary,1 time per week.

AM: primary 4-5 sets
secondary 4-5 sets

PM: auxiliary 4-5 sets

Plus some advanced tecniques here and there depending on your phase of perioditation.