Replying about the need for better gun-control in the US seems like a complete waste of time in this crowd.
But for what its worth…
Australia has a per capita homicide rate of about 1/350 that of the US. Multiple murders are very rare here. Serious improvements to the gun laws across all states after the Port Arthur Massacre were soundly welcomed by the vast majority of our citizens. This included the government’s gun buyback scheme. Overall violent crime figures were going down before Port Arthur, and these extra measures certainly didn’t slow that down. There have been no more rivers of blood.
And guess what, we are a land where over 95% of the voting age population turn up every election. There are no pits full of the government’s political enemies. So yes, we are a land of the free.
The majority of firearms in private hands are genuine hunting weapons. There is no ‘home defence’ mentality here. At the very least you guys should seriously reconsider who needs to own a handgun and where they are permitted to keep it.
[quote]MartyMonster wrote:
Replying about the need for better gun-control in the US seems like a complete waste of time in this crowd.
But for what its worth…
Australia has a per capita homicide rate of about 1/350 that of the US. Multiple murders are very rare here. Serious improvements to the gun laws across all states after the Port Arthur Massacre were soundly welcomed by the vast majority of our citizens. This included the government’s gun buyback scheme. Overall violent crime figures were going down before Port Arthur, and these extra measures certainly didn’t slow that down. There have been no more rivers of blood.
And guess what, we are a land where over 95% of the voting age population turn up every election. There are no pits full of the government’s political enemies. So yes, we are a land of the free.
The majority of firearms in private hands are genuine hunting weapons. There is no ‘home defence’ mentality here. At the very least you guys should seriously reconsider who needs to own a handgun and where they are permitted to keep it.
[/quote]
I’m more in your corner of the spectrum regarding guns. Disclosure: I’ve never owned a gun, didn’t grow up around them (except for a BB gun), and don’t feel the need for one. The issue related to guns in the U.S. is the serious boner a lot of our citizens get for them. As Bob Costas put it, we are a “gun culture.” Not to say there aren’t a number of other gun cultures out there, but especially as of late, we are starting to become defined by it.
I’ve gone through several violent crimes/murder vs. gun rate reports, and there are flaws with each of them. It’s hard to get a true picture of the issue, and it’s very easy to draw a glaringly open-faced conclusion on the data on the surface. However, tension is growing daily in this country, and the free-flow of guns (both legally and illegally obtained) is not helping the trigger-happiness of those with them. I would really like to see some psychology studies on the behavioral patterns/changes in people with or without guns in their possession. Would be interesting for sure.
Australia has a per capita homicide rate of about 1/350 that of the US. Multiple murders are very rare here. [/quote]
You also have a population that is less than one tenth that of the US.
So meaningless comparison is meaningless.
Except you know, the rivers caused by your higher rape rates.
lmafao… Voting is compulsory. Holy shit the fucking irony in this paragraph is so think I can’t get over it.
“Hey we’re so free our government FORCES us to vote by law…”
[quote]The majority of firearms in private hands are genuine hunting weapons. There is no ‘home defence’ mentality here. At the very least you guys should seriously reconsider who needs to own a handgun and where they are permitted to keep it.
[/quote]
Last time I checked it wasn’t called the Bill of Needs.
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Disclosure: I’ve never owned a gun, didn’t grow up around them (except for a BB gun), and don’t feel the need for one. [/quote]
Disclosure: So you have an opinion about something you know nothing about. Awesome.
And… Right on cue, the anti-rights crowds comes in showing that they think of nothing but penis.
Because no one ever killed (or still does) each other before guns were invented right?
Considering the vast majority of “gun crime” in the US is perpetuated as a result of gang violence and the War on Drugs, and the so overwhelming percentage of licensed CCW holders are law abiding citizens, and some of the most fierce nature conservationists, I’d go out on a limb and say the connotative dissonance this study would produce in you would be enough where you’d ignore it.
The vast majority of human history: Some asshole rules / subjugates his people.
America: No thanks, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Progressives / Liberals (usually from other countries with a history of subjugation): “You guys don’t need guns. Look at us, we’re super free.”
There are probably 50 other problems that we should address to reduce all violence and in so doing gun violence, but hey, it’s way easier to blame an inanimate object.
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Disclosure: I’ve never owned a gun, didn’t grow up around them (except for a BB gun), and don’t feel the need for one. [/quote]
Disclosure: So you have an opinion about something you know nothing about. Awesome.
And… Right on cue, the anti-rights crowds comes in showing that they think of nothing but penis.
Because no one ever killed (or still does) each other before guns were invented right?
Considering the vast majority of “gun crime” in the US is perpetuated as a result of gang violence and the War on Drugs, and the so overwhelming percentage of licensed CCW holders are law abiding citizens, and some of the most fierce nature conservationists, I’d go out on a limb and say the connotative dissonance this study would produce in you would be enough where you’d ignore it.
[/quote]
I guess my disclosure was not inclusive enough. I’ve fired guns, gone hunting with guns, and have many friends who own them and have concealed carry permits. And yet, I still don’t feel the need or desire for them. I never said I was against the right to own one.
Regarding my “boner” comment: again, I never said I was against the right to own a gun (or multiple, or type). But glad you have your preconceived judgments of me. Additionally, I’m sure you’re aware of the gun-loving that exists…just refer to the very thread on this forum.
Where in my post did I ever say no one has ever been killed by means other than a gun? Or for that matter, where did I say no one was ever killed before guns were invented? I didn’t…
Lastly, on the idea of a theoretical psychological study: the concept would be independent of any of those scenarios. It would be simply to study the psychological effects of possessing a gun, or multiple, or different types. i.e., what areas of the brain light up on a scan? What would qualitative feedback suggest in those subjects?
Again, glad you think so highly of others so to immediately write them off based on your subjective opinions. I clearly stated it would be interesting. I also mentioned how I reviewed several studies and reports on the topic, of which I noted flaws in, and didn’t merely jump right out and say guns = bad = death = outlaw them at once immediately.
Australia has a per capita homicide rate of about 1/350 that of the US. Multiple murders are very rare here. [/quote]
You also have a population that is less than one tenth that of the US.
So meaningless comparison is meaningless.
[/quote]
That’s why I used a PER CAPITA comparison…ie deaths per 100, 000 of population. So meaningful comparison is meaningful.
Except you know, the rivers caused by your higher rape rates.
[/quote]
What higher rape figures are those?
lmafao… Voting is compulsory. Holy shit the fucking irony in this paragraph is so think I can’t get over it.
“Hey we’re so free our government FORCES us to vote by law…”
[/quote]
Yes and its a brilliant system. No one can get narrow focused special interest groups as a threat to politicians as we all vote. Seriously you guys should consider it.
[quote]The majority of firearms in private hands are genuine hunting weapons. There is no ‘home defence’ mentality here. At the very least you guys should seriously reconsider who needs to own a handgun and where they are permitted to keep it.
[/quote]
Last time I checked it wasn’t called the Bill of Needs.
[/quote]
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Disclosure: I’ve never owned a gun, didn’t grow up around them (except for a BB gun), and don’t feel the need for one. [/quote]
Disclosure: So you have an opinion about something you know nothing about. Awesome.
[/quote]
You seem like a good dude HeyWaj10, but this is such a ridiculous way of looking at things.
Let apply that same logic elsewhere. I’ve never gotten a vaccine, I didn’t grow up around vaccines, and I don’t feel the need for vaccines. We should stop getting vaccinated.
Trying to understand why people kill each other and attack that problem is hard, and doesn’t have striking emotional appeals. So lets focus on how people are killing each other because then I can use an emotional argument to pretend I actually care, when it’s obvious I don’t because I’m not willing to look at the why, just the how.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Gun Control translated:
Trying to understand why people kill each other and attack that problem is hard, and doesn’t have striking emotional appeals. So lets focus on how people are killing each other because then I can use an emotional argument to pretend I actually care, when it’s obvious I don’t because I’m not willing to look at the why, just the how. [/quote]
For some people, maybe that’s true. Fortunately, the discussion has also been striking a greater chord with the “mental health” side of things. Do I think gun control will solve all of this? Hell no. No single law has solved any single problem by itself. Maybe that’s an incorrect statement, but I’ll stand behind it. And my position is not to outlaw guns, but maybe make them more difficult to get? Maybe legislation is the wrong way to go about the whole issue. I don’t have the answer, and I won’t claim to.
And I know, I know…a law or ban or whatever is not going to stop someone who’s ready to break the law from doing the bad things they are prepared to do. And that’s why I see the breakdown in the arguments for gun legislation. However, that doesn’t change the fact that our society idolizes the use of guns (video games, movies, tv shows, etc.) and that MAY be having an impact on how our society views them.
That’s why I used a PER CAPITA comparison…ie deaths per 100, 000 of population. So meaningful comparison is meaningful.[/quote]
Math is hard as the quote boxes apparently.
310m more people = the country will have different problems, and the problems the two countries share will be compounded by the increase in population.
[quote]
What higher rape figures are those?[/quote]
lol
[quote]
Yes and its a brilliant system. [/quote]
lol again.
Yes, being forced to vote, and then using Orwellian Newspeak to try and call that “free” is brilliant indeed.
Big Daddy Government will take care of us! They even let me have a say in how they do it!!
[quote]
And that’s a nice way to skip the point![/quote]
No… It doesn’t skip the point at all. It is the very damn point. It isn’t called the Bill of Needs, it’s the Bill of Rights.
That fact being lost on you to the point where you don’t understand how it’s 100% applicable to your statement is all the explanation a thinking man needs to understand why populations allow themselves to be disarmed.
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
And my position is not to outlaw guns, but maybe make them more difficult to get? [/quote]
What other rights should be more difficult for you to exercise?
What are you going to give up, seeing as you want me to give up some of mine?
[quote]. However, that doesn’t change the fact that our society idolizes the use of guns (video games, movies, tv shows, etc.) and that MAY be having an impact on how our society views them.
Edited.[/quote]
Not sure I’d agree with idolize, or that it is significantly different now than it has been for the last 200+ years.
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
And my position is not to outlaw guns, but maybe make them more difficult to get? [/quote]
What other rights should be more difficult for you to exercise?
What are you going to give up, seeing as you want me to give up some of mine?
[quote]. However, that doesn’t change the fact that our society idolizes the use of guns (video games, movies, tv shows, etc.) and that MAY be having an impact on how our society views them.
Edited.[/quote]
Not sure I’d agree with idolize, or that it is significantly different now than it has been for the last 200+ years. [/quote]
Again, I’m not saying take away the right to own guns. Where are you pulling this from? Legislation does not take away the right. Red tape? Sure…but not the removal of their right. Maybe my argument is just useless here. Let’s not do anything to address the ease by which a mentally unstable individual has to obtain a gun, which someone has far less of a chance to defend against in a helpless situation (like yesterday) vs. a man wielding a knife.
But then you’ll turn around and say “what if he had a blow torch, or a flame thrower? Wanna put legislation on those too!!!..where does it end!!!”
Fine then. I’ll yield to obscurity.
And come on, dude…apples to oranges on the “significant change vs. last 200+ years”. Give me a break. Modern media has had no impact on the cultural views of guns vs. the times of muskets? Please.
The issue is with mental heath, our current culture (we have much less close relationships than we did even 50 years ago, thanks to social media), and the economy. I would bet that the guy who committed this act felt like he had nothing to lose. A lot of people feel like they are at the end of their rope, but nobody does anything about it. What makes me sick his how complacent our culture has become.
This will degenerate into an argument about gun control, race, or religion, which is a reflection of how stupid americans have become. Wake up, hold the people in charge accountable. These problems aren’t going to go away with facebook statuses and whatever bullshit constitutes “action” in our culture.
Again, I’m not saying take away the right to own guns. Where are you pulling this from? Legislation does not take away the right. Red tape? Sure…but not the removal of their right. [/quote]
Right, I acknowledge that your willing to let us Plebs still have a portion of our rights, or if feeling magnanimous, still have our rights if we jump through your hoops.
I’m asking you, what other rights, ones you do feel the need to exercise, are you willing to have the same “red tape” applied to?
Not talking about bans.
No, it isn’t that. It’s just we are done. Every “compromise” on guns has been and will continue to be a loss for our Rights, and we are done. There is no more giving, not an inch, nor a mile.
If anyone wants compromise, then the anti-rights side has to lose something too.
You want universal back ground check? Harder back ground checks? Fine. We want silencers taken off the ATF list, we want the Hughes amendment removed, and we want shall issue class 3 approval within 14 days.
If the anti-civil-rights crowd wants something, they better be prepared to give something in return.
Again with the focus on the HOW and not the WHY. This proves my point a few posts ago.
900k+ babies sliced up and vacuumed out of the womb a year. Left’s response: It’s a right!
9k people die in gun homicides a year. Only when it isn’t black on black violence, the left’s response: we have a gun culture where we idolize the gun! Ban them!
Inner-city black men slaughtering themselves because of bullshit like the War and Drugs and Democrat policy in those very cities, no one bats a fucking eye. Joe Smith wants a factory standard magazine and the entire country loses it’s fucking mind.
[quote]Aero51 wrote:
The issue is with mental heath, our current culture (we have much less close relationships than we did even 50 years ago, thanks to social media), and the economy. I would bet that the guy who committed this act felt like he had nothing to lose. A lot of people feel like they are at the end of their rope, but nobody does anything about it. What makes me sick his how complacent our culture has become. This will degenerate into an argument about gun control, race, or religion, which is a reflection of how stupid americans have become. Wake up, hold the people in charge accountable. These problems aren’t going to go away with facebook statuses and whatever bullshit constitutes “action” in our culture. [/quote]
Right, and those are all long-term battles we have to face as a society. Legislation could serve as a short-term solution as part of the larger picture. That being said, I totally agree with you that at the of the day, it’s people that need to be helped. The guns don’t kill people, it’s the person pulling the trigger. And people suck, especially ones who aren’t willing to seek help, even when they are FULLY AWARE that they are “ticking time bombs” like this shooter was.
Also, social media absolutely sucks. My wife does that “facebook action” shit, and it drives me nuts. But she’s my ticket to happiness, so I keep my mouth shut and let her feel good about posting actionless stuff.
No, it isn’t that. It’s just we are done. Every “compromise” on guns has been and will continue to be a loss for our Rights, and we are done. There is no more giving, not an inch, nor a mile.
If anyone wants compromise, then the anti-rights side has to lose something too.
You want universal back ground check? Harder back ground checks? Fine. We want silencers taken off the ATF list, we want the Hughes amendment removed, and we want shall issue class 3 approval within 14 days.
If the anti-civil-rights crowd wants something, they better be prepared to give something in return. [/quote]
I’m not gonna be the one to argue your point, cause it makes sense. There’s probably a million things I could choose from to try and meet you with, but I got nothing to give now.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
900k+ babies sliced up and vacuumed out of the womb a year. Left’s response: It’s a right!
9k people die in gun homicides a year. Only when it isn’t black on black violence, the left’s response: we have a gun culture where we idolize the gun! Ban them!
Inner-city black men slaughtering themselves because of bullshit like the War and Drugs and Democrat policy in those very cities, no one bats a fucking eye. Joe Smith wants a factory standard magazine and the entire country loses it’s fucking mind.
The media is far from the issue. [/quote]
Again, I’ve got nothing to argue on that. I shake my damn head at a lot of the stuff that the farther left choose to get worked up about. Likewise the lack of media focus on the root causes of black-on-black crime, etc.
I’m not aware of the details of how the gun was obtained in this case, but often the shooters in mass shootings obtain their guns illegally. So simply making it illegal for them to own guns would not have changed anything. Of course, there is a discussion about whether we need to change the laws to be more enforceable and whether that is helpful and justified. But if the anti-gun movement is going to be fueled by individual acts of violence, then they should have specific suggestions that are reasonable and would have (or at least plausibly could have) prevented the act of violence at hand.
Also, would this guy have made the attack anyways if he couldn’t get a gun. And how successful would he have been? The video shows that he is able to get very close and draw the gun without them noticing. At that range, a knife is probably just as effective (although filming might be more difficult). It’s speculative, but bears consideration.
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Likewise the lack of media focus on the root causes of black-on-black crime, etc.[/quote]
This is a lot of the issue and the cause of a lot of the frustration.
Gun owners talk about this all the damn time, and the people that want to remove our rights, never ever do.
Here we have a group of people (poor inner-city men) killing each other on the regular, who are being lied to by politicians who are buying their votes and not doing any of the help they promised, focused on by LEO (for a variety of reasons, and one of which is that yes, some cops, like all groups of people, are racist, but that is far from the biggest factor) and left out in the skirts of society…
All these inner-cities are gun control paradises like Australia BTW.
No one cares until it’s an inter-racial killing. No one cares until a loony snaps and kills some kids like a fucking scum. But once those things happen that allow them to push for their government control fetish, THEN they care, because they add the inner-city violence on the rest of the countries violence and make dumb fuck statements like “countries with a 10th of the population, no diversity and entirely different social and economic systems don’t have this problem”.
You are a reasonable dude, and it’s appreciated. But when it comes to the gun control “national conversation” you’re jumping into a hot tub that has had people fornicating in it for decades… And those of use looking to support the civil rights of all Americans are pretty fucking tired of having to actually defend Rights. Particularly from foreign lefties that are complacent being a subject to their government, ignorant of the typical history of governments.
[quote]Silyak wrote:
Also, would this guy have made the attack anyways if he couldn’t get a gun. And how successful would he have been? The video shows that he is able to get very close and draw the gun without them noticing. At that range, a knife is probably just as effective (although filming might be more difficult). It’s speculative, but bears consideration. [/quote]
I thought of that too, since it was done on air probably for dramatic purposes a knife might have been more effective.