T Nation

TT: Distribution and Makeup of Meals?

TT:

There has been a LOT of recent debate (and confusion!) on the distribution of P+C and P+F meals…and has been since JB came out with the concepts…(I think JB is even tired of answering the questions!)

Anyway…from what I’ve been able to derive from it all…isn’t the distribution of meals at least PARTIALLY dependent on your goals?

The other confusion seems to be peoples insistance (wrongly so) that meals are “purely” P+C or “purely” P+F . (I don’t think that JB ever truly said that).

Anyway…I just wanted yours (and others) thoughts. My feeling is that you can clear up some of the confusion!

Thanks!

Mufasa

Hey, Mufasa. A little nutritional philosophy or theory to go with my coffee? (grin)

…isn’t the distribution of meals at least PARTIALLY dependent on your goals?

Yes, absolutely. A person bulking needs more P+C meals and higher quantities of carbs. A person cutting benefits from more P+F meals (with something in the way of green veggies added in) and optimized PWO nutrition, with the majority (~60%) of their carbs being taken in PWO.

I’m with you and with JB that I’d like to see a few green veggies added into P+F meals. There’s a big difference between adding a pound of broccoli to a P+F meal (P+F+C?) and eating a Veggie Lover’s Pizza from Pizza Hut, also P+F+C.

Anyone else have thoughts on this one?

Ahhh…

ANOTHER confusing point that I’ve seen, TT!

You would be surprised how many people think that when you say “PWO” (or post workout), that one means IMMEDIATE post work out…in other words (using your example), they think that you have to consume 60% of their daily carbs, IMMEDIATELY post workout out in some post workout feeding frenzy via a single “Super Carb” meal! (Hey…I’ve had many be confused on this point!)…

So…in many discussions, “PWO” is simply that period after ones workout…which includes the IMMEDIATE period…AND subsequent meals…

(Boy…did I just make it even MORE confusing?)

LOL!

Your thoughts?

Mufasa

Mufasa and TT:
I also believe that macronutrient make-up should vary slightly depending on an individuals goals. One variable not discussed above is that in my experience, a slight increase in protein intake during a cutting phase seems to offset losses in muscle mass. Any thoughts on this?

Mufasa, about your last post:
Interestingly, I was just reviewing the ACSM/ADA position stand on nutrition and athletic performance while preparing for class and nutrient timing seems to be essential. They recommend 1.5g/kg body weight carb intake within 30 min of working out and repeated every 2 hours for 4-6 hours. For a 180lb person that’s ~120g carbs (480 kcal) within 30 min, repeated at 2,4,and 6 hours post workout…for a whopping total of 1920kcal from carbs ALONE!

So it does seem like a relatively large meal is suggested immediately after working out and carbohydrate consumption is continued for a period of hours to optimally replenish glycogen stores.

Cool stuff, huh?

A little more “philosophy”, TT?

Another hard point for a lot of people to grasp (It took me a while…and I’m STILL working in it!)

It’s the concept of needing more CARBS when one wishes to bulk. Is this purely for their “protein sparing” effect, for adding cals, or for some totally different reason?

(It seems when you say “bulk”…people immediately think protein and fat…)

Mufasa

If you’re looking for a breakdown of Berardi’s articles, here’s a great start. It’s called The Essential Berardi: A stripped down overview of JB’s dietary wisdom
( www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=199ess ), by Chris Shugart. Hope this helps solve some problems!
-DV

gatordoc, wow, that’s a lotta carbs! (grin)

I’d take those recommendations under advisement. Even though we want a healthy/substantial amount of carbs PWO and even though it’s an optimal time to take those carbs in, I’d still look at a number of factors:

  • cutting?
  • bulking?
  • how insulin sensitive (or not)?
  • intensity of workout and duration?
  • degree of carb depletion?

Another hard point for a lot of people to grasp (It took me a while…and I’m STILL working in it!) is the concept of needing more CARBS when one wishes to bulk. Is this purely for their “protein sparing” effect, for adding cals, or for some totally different reason?

I go with Option B, “adding calories.”

Bulking or cutting, protein and fat don’t vary too terribly much. Carbs are what you manipulate to achieve dietary goals: Type, amount and timing.

Thanks for the link, Nathan. That’s an article that can’t be reviewed often enough!

gastordoc, the amount of carbs that you mentioned are what most people recommend PWO - 0.8g/pound of BW (and protein centering around 0.4g/pound of BW).

I guess everyone can benefit from one such PWO meal/shake given that they sufficiently depleted their glycogen stores. Rest is dependent on their goals.

PS - TT, good to see you are back :slight_smile:

chints, good to see you, too! (grin)

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
gatordoc, wow, that’s a lotta carbs! (grin)

I’d take those recommendations under advisement. Even though we want a healthy/substantial amount of carbs PWO and even though it’s an optimal time to take those carbs in, I’d still look at a number of factors:

  • cutting?
  • bulking?
  • how insulin sensitive (or not)?
  • intensity of workout and duration?
  • degree of carb depletion?

[/quote]

I would add time of day to this list. If the workout occurs in the morning, not only is your insulin sensitivity optimal, but you have enough hours left in the day to eat four more meals. This is a huge limiting factor that has to be taken into account when designing a workout/diet regimen. When I bulk, I workout in the morning, no matter what it takes to make it happen.

Interesting point.

How important is WORKOUT timing for hypertrophy? Is morning significantly better than afternoon or evening?

You mean to say that a person weighing 200lbs needs to consume 160 grams of carbs and 80 grams of Protein immediately after his workout? That seems tremendously excessive to me.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You mean to say that a person weighing 200lbs needs to consume 160 grams of carbs and 80 grams of Protein immediately after his workout? That seems tremendously excessive to me. [/quote]

That does seem to be a bit much. I’ve been following Waterbury’s recommendation from one of his Branding Iron articles:

  1. Sip on half a serving Surge or properly formulated drink during your weight-training workout. Immediately after the workout, consume the other half.

  2. Wait 45 to 60 minutes and begin an hour-long carb/protein feast.

  3. Carbohydrates: Consume 1 gram per pound of lean body mass.

  4. Protein: Consume half a gram per pound of lean body mass.

  5. Fat intake must be nil, nada, zilch! (Or heck, at least very low.)

  6. Consume 300 mg of R-ALA.

  7. Consume 15-30 mg of vanadyl sulfate if you respond well to this supplement (this step isn’t mandatory since some trainees receive no benefit).

I don’t follow numbers 6 or 7. I find that this is not easy to do. By the end of that hour, I feel like I’m about to burst. I can’t imagine having to do almost the same thing during a half hour immediately following a workout.

Also, I just crunched some numbers. If you wiegh 180@10%, by the Katch-McArdle formula, with an activity factor of 1.725(hard exercise 6-7 days/week) and an increase in total calories of 20% for bulking purposes, you should consume 4056 calories/day. The 1920 kcals you would get from gatordoc’s numbers would be about 47% of your total daily calories- from carbs alone, in four meals.

If your TDEE is 1.55(exercise 3-4 days/week), you would already be consuming 53% of your daily calorie needs from carbs.

These numbers are only post workout meals. I like to have carbs in pre-workout meals as well. There starts to be less and less room for protein and fat after all of this.

While I like to keep my carb calories around 50% of my total intake when bulking, these recommendations would not work for me, personally.

Thoughts?

p.s. I hope I did those numbers right, or I just spent a bunch of time making a fool of myslelf! haha.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You mean to say that a person weighing 200lbs needs to consume 160 grams of carbs and 80 grams of Protein immediately after his workout? That seems tremendously excessive to me. [/quote]

The correct figures are 0.8g/kg carbs and 0.4g/kg protein, not per lb. So a 200lb man needs 72g carbs and 36g protein.

[quote]gatordoc wrote:
Mufasa and TT:
I also believe that macronutrient make-up should vary slightly depending on an individuals goals. One variable not discussed above is that in my experience, a slight increase in protein intake during a cutting phase seems to offset losses in muscle mass. Any thoughts on this?

Mufasa, about your last post:
Interestingly, I was just reviewing the ACSM/ADA position stand on nutrition and athletic performance while preparing for class and nutrient timing seems to be essential. They recommend 1.5g/kg body weight carb intake within 30 min of working out and repeated every 2 hours for 4-6 hours. For a 180lb person that’s ~120g carbs (480 kcal) within 30 min, repeated at 2,4,and 6 hours post workout…for a whopping total of 1920kcal from carbs ALONE!

So it does seem like a relatively large meal is suggested immediately after working out and carbohydrate consumption is continued for a period of hours to optimally replenish glycogen stores.[/quote]

These recommendations have been outdated since 1996. Candler et.al. in a 1996 study showed that carbs plus protein resulted in a higher rate of glycogen estoration than carbs alone. New studys such as JB uses in Solving the Post-workout puzzle show the current recommend amounts are 0.8g/kg carbs and 0.4g/kg protein. The ADA will finally catch on in about 10 years (maybe).