T Nation

Trying To Fix Side Effects


#1

Hey everyone, I am new to the forums! I have been looking at a few different forums and this place seemed to be the most knowledgeable and helpful to everyone from what I have seen! So I guess I’ll jump right in and give a little background of myself. I am 31 years 6’2" currently 275lbs and have approximately 25-30% bf (it has increased alot over the past 3 years). I have been training for 14 years and used gear starting 5 years ago. My goals are to drop the BF % and increase my lean muscle mass. I am starting the process now and hoping to drop to roughly 215lbs by summer. Current supplement regiment is 1000mg fish oil 3x daily, vit D3 500IU, multivitamin (garden of life with probiotics and digestive enzymes), turmeric, and rhodolia rosea. Also every morning I mix black seed oil, manuka honey, cinnamon, cayanne pepper, ginger, and lemon juice to get my body ready for the day. I also mix 1tsp Himalayan salt with 16oz water as soon as I wake up to drink to get the adrenal glands fired up.

My diet is free range eggs, wild caught fish, leafy greens and healthy fats (coconut oil, olive oil, avocados). Meals are spaced out at 3 hours

Experience with gear
1st cycle (this is where all of my troubles began, this was not done correctly)- 10 weeks Test E 500mg weekly (250 x2 per week), adex .5mg EOD (did not taper off adex and had a bad rebound)
PCT- Clomid 100/100/50/50

In-between both cycles ran small doses of ADEX to keep E2 in check, I remember being an emotional wreck lol

2nd cycle (about one year later and I was not recovering from first cycle)- 10 weeks Test 250 x2 weely, Masteron 200mg x2 weekly, NPP 50mg EOD, adex as needed (my hair started thinning from the mast)
PCT- Nolva 40/40/20/20 Clomid 100/100/50/50 Aromasin 12.5mg EOD

Still did not recover, ran aromasin in-between

3rd cycle- 10 weeks Test E 250 once per week, Tren Ace 100mg EOD, Anavar 100mg daily (6weeks), HCG 250iu x2 weekly Adex.5 EOD
PCT- PCT- Nolva 40/40/20/20 Clomid 100/100/50/50 Aromasin 12.5mg EOD

Still not recovered

4th Cycle- Anadrol 50mg ED (4weeks), Test E 250 once per week, Tren Ace 100mg EOD, HCG 250iu x2 weekly

Still not recovered, tried Power PCT
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day
Used aromasin the whole time 12.5mg e3d

Bloodwork After showed E2 very high, not much response from LH/FSH also

Doctor would not put me on TRT due to my age and said it is a risk for prostate cancer. I then deicded to put myself on TRT and was on for 6 months Test E 250 1/2cc weekly. I used aromasin to control E but did not find it very helpful, switched to Adex. I found controlling my levels to be very tough. Decided to come off and run HCG 250iu E3D which I felt a litlle better on. Came off that and now have been on a test booster for the past 3 weeks hoping maybe something will help.

So with all of that out there I am here because I need help. I understand I should of never gone back on, I was yound and un-educated. I continued using because I was loosing muscle mass and thought if everything was shutdown again maybe the PCT would work with changes and I was obviously wrong. I did get bloodwork in-between everything and E2 was either high or low, FT low, TT mid range, prolactin mid range, LH/fsh low, thyroid levels were in mid range. I read the post HPTA Restart for TRT w/Application to Gear & PCT and want to try a restart once more. Looking for thoughts, feelings, and the brutal truth.

I want to feel semi normal again. I have no aggression, no primal sex drive at all. I can have sex with so-so erections but I am generally disinterested in sex. My testes feel very light and empty and have for a long time. When I do have erections it almost feels like my penis is hollow, when I am erect there is still no real urge. My girl and I are having issues because of my lack of drive and she does not want to put up with it anymore. I take cialis to get the job done but there is no primal desire for sex. Even when I was on T and an AI I could not get myself to actually have a decent drive. I have forgotten what being horny feels like and I want it back any way possible. Also, part of the restart is I want to try to be off everything and we would like another child. I gain excess weight extremely easy, emotional eating, and facial hair grows in very very slow.

I will be getting bloodwork this week before starting what KSman has posted and then follow his recommendations. The bloodwork I am requesting will be
LH/FSH
TT, FT
SHBG
Prolactin
T3/T4
E2 sensitive
Metabolic Panel
Hemocrit
DHEA
Vit D

Again, I am looking for honest feedback and help me move forward if possible. If anything I just want a damn sex drive. I know this is long but I tried to put everything I could think of. Thank you everyone!


#2

Hello, I’m new here as well and I have a lot to learn about test etc.

One contribution I can make though is slightly off topic - be careful with wild caught fish. I eat fish especially salmon more than most. I’ve always known wild caught to be better and healthier. Then Fukashima happened. If you Google Fukashima Fish you will be shocked. Fish fillets full of tumors being sold on store shelves. The only reason I know is because a friend of mine who works in the industry told me they simply cut the large tumors off and put them on store shelves. I Google it and have been buying farm raised or fresh water wild caught or fish that only survive in other parts of the world ever since.


#3

Only fish I buy is wild caught cod from norway from the local fish market…friends with the owner so I get a great deal on bulk :slight_smile: I was eating salmon for a bit but I just can’t eat it consistently…once in a while is fine tho…thanks for the heads up :slight_smile:


#4

@KSman …I do have a quick few questions about the sticky in the post…would it be recommended for the adex mixed with vodka to be in a .5mg/1ml ratio to make it easier to keep track of my dosing? Also, if hcg works, then I discontinue the use of hcg introduce nolva…my LH responds and fsh does not? Is that possible? Also if I start to taper off and it seems my HPTA can not hold its own what do you recommend from that point? Continue use? Just trying to think of any possible scenario so when it comes up I am well prepared. I will be posting bloods everytime I get them…hope I am one of the lucky ones that gets a restart. Would it be worth it to get levels for inhibin a and b also? Thank you


#5

Continuing to cycle and continuing to suppress your natural endogenous testosterone will only lengthen recovery time. I think you need to focus on getting back to normal before you consider running any more Cycles. If you can’t get back to normal go to the doctor get your levels tested and try and get on trt. Your constant cycling may have affected your natural endogenous testosterone production for the rest of your life. You really need to see a doctor and get labs to know what’s going on inside your body. Until you do put down the drugs. They are only going to further complicate the situation from a health standpoint.


#6

I can say from personal experience it took me more than three years to get back to Natural levels after years of suppression from illicit drug use. What you really need is time and Doctor supervision.

To your question regarding nolvadex, from my own reading of medical literature, I believe it has been shown to have a greater effect on lh than on fsh, in lab controlled studies. I’ll throw you a link if I can find it.


#7

I have no interest or intent on running a cycle again…unless I am forced to go to TRT…my post was about my history with use and the stupidity behind it…deff on the same page as you about getting my natural production back…that is what I am hoping for and have hoped for many times with no success…I have tons of bloodwork from over the past 5 years…didn’t feel all of it was necessary to post…I will be posting bloods from now and throughout pct for feedback…that link would be great…I was reading how lh raised in some people but not FSH and I was wondering how that would affect possible recovery…my doctor is on board and knows everything…only thing he isn’t on board with is prescribing TRT for me…I would have to self medicate and he would order bloods for me…I have been to 2 endo’s and 1 urologist and both did nothing but order bloodwork look lost and shrugged their shoulders and told me I am to young for TRT


#8

Yeah that’s definitely a difficult situation… How long has it been since you had any T suppression from exogenous supplementation? Are you taking any other mind or mood-altering substances or medication? The big ones here would be benzos and opiates which are both famous for suppressing T and skyrocketing E. If so, your body will not even begin to recover homeostasis until you cease everything.

If you have long established Low T, you’re not currently using anything, and your doctor shrugs you off regarding trt, I would say ditch him and find a doctor who will listen to what you have to say and is willing to look into the situation more closely before hitting the next button. With an increase in prevelence of steroid and anti-aging clinics, it shouldn’t be all that difficult to find a doctor who’s willing to treat you.


#9

The doctors who shrugged their shoulders were the endo’s and urologist and my primary said the same thing you have…ditch them…I had have not had any exo for about 5 months roughly…I came off and ran hcg 250iu e3d for about 10 weeks then once I finished hcg I grabbed a test booster…one of my testes shrunk significantly from the very first cyc and has never gone back to size but I once I ran the hcg I would feel a difference within them…I am thinking my issue is my body fat (T–>E increased rate conversion) and a very fragile HPTA…dosing the adex while on test and while on hcg was very tough for me…just all has turned into a nightmare I more than likely will have to live with…I do not take any other drugs and I do not drink alcohol


#10

Running HCG while off cycle can desensitize your body’s receptors thus causing additional rebound after cessation. HCG is generally used while on cycle as a replacement to keep your testes open for business though not generally recommended for PCT because of this reason.

Heres a more in-depth discussion on tamoxifen’s effects on LH and FSH you could read(read the Links given in the discussion as well):

http://forums.rxmuscle.com/archive/index.php/t-27148.html

I haven’t found that study yet but when I do I’ll send it to you or copy in a reply.


#11

Thanks I appreciate it…the more I am reading the more I see how much stuff I did wrong…I am going to do the plan outlined by KSman and see what happens


#12

Are you using pharma grade ai’s nolva, hcg?


#13

Yes I am…atleast believe it is pharma grade…online source was given by a friend to a pharmacy in India


#14

Labs:
Test fT3, fT4, not T3, T4
CBC
hematocrit
AST/ALT
DHEA-S never DHEA

Your PCT methods were very destructive:

You need to be on low dose hCG for a long time so the testes can recover size and function. Only then can you switch to low dose SERM then proceed to trying to recover. Please read the stickies carefully and understand why I suggest what I do. Do the labs suggested during PCT and understand what the results mean.

Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc
  • HPTA restart

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.


#15

Thank you for responding @KSman I appreciate it more than you know. This is a huge learning curve for me (think maybe I am overthinking?) Im apologizing in advance for questions. I am reading stickies as much as possible. I got bloodwork done yesterday…I believe the ft3 was on there but not ft4…the labs you suggested weren’t on the paperwork…once results are in I will post. After I get my bloodwork I will start the low does of hcg (I assume is the standard of low is 250iu eod?). I will run that with adex until testes return to normal size. I will get bloodwork ( what your recommendations are plus hormone panel) in about 6 weeks to see t levels to make sure e2 is in check and t levels are up, will post those results and stay on until size has recovered. Is there a length of time I should not exceed? I will keep a log of body temp from when I wake up and when I go to bed…today temp was 99.4 in the am…at night I typically get very cold…again thank you for your help and advice!!


#16

Also want to add that I got psa levels also…urine flow is weak…usually fluctuates with adex doing between strong and weak


#17

So I got some blood work done last friday prior to starting HCG…I was taking a test booster and a low dose adex…here are results

LH- 5.8 (1.7-8.6)
FSH- Not in yet
Free Test- 12.7 (8.7- 25.1)
Test Serum- 723 (348-1197)
SHBG- 56.8 (16.5-55.9)

Free Estradiol with SHBG
E2 serum, ms- 28(8-35)
Free Estradiol, Percent- 2.2 (1.7-5.4)
Free e2 serum- .62 (.2-1.5)

Estradiol (Roche ECLIA Methodology)- 47.2(7.6-42.6)
Prolactin- 10.6 (4.0-15.2)
PSA- .3 (0-4)

T4 Free- 1.61 (.82-1.77)
T3 uptake-31 (24-39)
AST- 50 (0-40)
ALT- 55 (0-44)
Hemocrit- 49.1(37.5-51)

CBC- Everything came back in range…if need be I can type everything out and post it

No Vit D or DHEA-S ordered…will be getting it next round of bloodwork in a month…

@KSman …I am Looking for some feed back on the HCG/Nolvadex protocol you have outlined…It seemed the test booster actually helped raise LH and free T levels. last bloodwork free t level was 4.3 and LH was 1.4…so pretty much seems my testes and HPTA both have responded to just an over the counter? Also high can SHBG be a part of my issues? I know the e2 was high…going to have to find a balance with that…thanks


#18

TSH-3.14 (.45-4.5) forgot to add that


#19

In 2 more weeks I will be getting another set of bloods with all the same stuff plus what was missing. My doctor also ordered a sperm test. I will post results…

I am running the HCG 250iu eod and started with .25mg of adex eod…dose was to low…went to .5mg eod…still feels to low but better after upping it…I have tenderness in nipples…may up the dose to either .75 eod if the tenderness doesn’t subside over the next week…

Has anyone heard of stinging nettle root, pure magnesium, and boron to help lower SHBG. From what I am reading first need to get my E2 in check but these have shown effective in reducing SHBG making test more bio-available. Any thoughts?

My AST/ALT results…should I run milk thistle now or should I wait?


#20

Been a little over on a month since starting HCG 250iu eod with .75 adex eod…here are labs @KSman suggested plus a few others

Labs:
Test fT3- 29 (24-39)
fT4- 1.22 (.82-1.77)
CBC- everything came back in range…can type out if necessary
hematocrit- 47 (37.5-51)
AST- 30 (0-40)
ALT- 37 (0-44)
DHEA-S- 176 (33-416)
LH- 5 (1.7-8.6)
Free Test- 10.7 (8.7-25.1)
Total test- 544 (348-1197)
Estradiol- < 5 (7.6-42.6)
Shbg- 32.3 (16.5-55.9)
Vitamin d- 33.8 (30-100)
Progesterone- <.1 (0-.5)

I am going to cut back to .5 adex eod…should my Test be higher if running 250iu eod of HCG? It was higher on just a test booster…possibly wondering if my HCG is bunk…wouldn’t my LH be suppressed while taking HCG? I am going to double up on vit d supplement also…body temp just above 99 when waking and will get as low as 96.8 before bed but usually low 97

Is testing HCG on pregnancy test and effective method to test it? Looking for some feedback on how everything looks…any hope for recovery? Thanks everyone