Trump: The Second Year

There are a variety of jobs in hospitality.

There are clean jobs like waiters, bartenders, casino dealers and concierges. There are also dirty jobs like dish washer, fry cook, maid or janitor. If you are legal and can speak English you can start in, or move up into the less dirty jobs. And usually make more money. They are more sought after, and “better.” The dirty jobs suck, so if you can move up, you do it ASAP. People with options quit dishwashing jobs all the time because it’s miserable.

The illegals “top out” in the dirty jobs. They can’t get better work as easily. They are more likely to stay in the dirty job.

So, yes. Some jobs are beneath Americans.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I fail to see how having opportunities to advance = American’s feel “dirty” jobs are beneath them and my comments should be framed by the original statement:

I read this to mean American’s feel they are simply and innately better than those jobs and they should be left to the peasant illegals. Maybe I am reading into the statement more than is there.

However, I don’t see the above baring out in the BLS data and in my own personal experience. I also think it’s important to remember there are real limitations on what illegals can do. It’s a cost-benefit for employers. Obviously, PWC can’t hire an illegal to be an auditor for example. Illegals have a very real employment ceiling so they’re stuck with few choices while legal residents are not.

I’m a Sr. Business Analyst now, but I washed dishes for about a year as a teenager. I never felt it was beneath me just that it sucked and I wanted to make more than $7/hr. I still don’t feel washing dishes is “beneath” me in some negative sense. I would do it part -time if I needed the money. I’d do it full-time if I had to.

It’s beneath my skill-set and education, which is just a fact without a postive or negative connotation. Maybe that’s what @pfury meant?

Nope I mean some Americans aren’t willing to eat that supply and demand line for their time the way illegals are.

Because some of them genuinely won’t. Otherwise some of them wouldn’t continue to be unemployed.

Yup

Which goes into the value Americans are willing to work for. Vast majority of illegals don’t get these fringe benefits, and people competing for those spots need to take that into account when thinking about the hourly wage.

Wasn’t the intent of my post, but there is some truth to it. I should clarify my position though. I’m personally of the opinion that poor working conditions don’t exist, only underpaid working conditions. Bill Gates will shovel animal shit in North Korea for the right price, it’s just a helluva price (obviously an extreme example).

All of it. Yup. I mean in a very general sense that many many many Americans more highly value their time when compared to illegals. It’s an absolute thing and a comparative thing.

Same with outsourcing. Assuming an equal value worker, there’s no benefit to outsourcing. If Americans were willing to work for that same value (obviously a generalization) no company would be outsourcing.

I want to circle on this because I genuinely believe most Americans would fit into this category. They’re willing to do what it takes to make ends meet. Some simply aren’t, as shown by people spending massive amounts of time unemployed while McDonalds has a job opening down the street

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I’m glad you wrote this because you saved me a bunch of words, lol. I took your original statement to essential be the opposite. As in, most American’s feel entitled AF and won’t do certain jobs because they’re beneath them. I completely agree that there are some American’s that do feel that way.

I think this has more to do with a) unemployment benefits are often better than minimum wage and b) working a min wage job reduces certain unemployment benefits making time invested a wash (initially at least).

I think it has less to do with an air of “this is beneath me” to the real economic impact of working a low wage job with the benefits afforded people in this country.

Conversely, illegals don’t have a choice since the benefits they can receive are much more limited. If illegals had the same choice as the first group I would be surprised if they elected to work instead.

This I disagree with (sort of). There is a minimum cost to employ a US resident that goes beyond their wage (noted above). Places like India or China simply do not require those same protections/benefits. So assuming an equal value worker does not necessarily mean outsourcing has no benefit because it goes beyond the employee. Hopefully, that makes sense. I don’t think it has much to do with American’s willingness to work tbh. I think it has a lot more to do with the cost to employ a person here versus, say India, for the same job*.

*I should say the cost to employ a person here legally.

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For some of those people they will lose benefits and/or money if they take a job like that. Some can make more money on unemployment benefits than working full time in fast food. How many people making minimum wage jobs are having their ability to live subsidized by the government?

Imo all of those criteria factor into “employee value.” Talk to a programmer who has been in the industry in the last 10 years. Despite how much money they make out of school most studies have shown the pay growth has been slowed substantially due to how easy it is to fill entry level work out of India.

It’s like those stupid investment commercials about how the price of rice is connected to the sale of rocket fuel yadayada.

Which imo would touch on the original question of “why is America dependant on immigration.”

Stated Graphically.

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Am I interpreting correctly?

Qe = Quantity at equilibrium and
Qm = Quantity at Minimum Wage

I just kinda threw it up there to be a smart ass!

But yes, e= equilibrium, m=minimum wage

It is kinda related to the discussion though. Decisions in the economy are made by the market, and factors influencing the market (like minimum wage, or unemployment benefits, or peoples value of free time) can Price jobs in and out of the market.

That backward slope at the top of the labor supply curve is particularly wild. If wages go high enough, fewer people will work!

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That makes perfect sense when you think about families in the labor force. If parent A can pull down enough money to afford the lifestyle the family wants, then parent B can stay home.

The abject horror of it. Perish the thought.

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No son of mine!

Young dudes in Bolivia chew coca leaves to work harder.
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Those types of pictures make me incredibly sad.

Also, I’ve had liquor made from the coca leaves.

Aside from being neon green and looking like the Ooze from TMNT, that stuff was wicked for staying up!

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Pivot to another vaguely related topic and manipulate your feelings! Classic Progressive Debate Techniques!

Hopefully, those young guys think we’re a couple of pusses, and are glad for the chance to make some money.

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I think “beneath” is kind of a blanket statement for a lot of Americans won’t do this type of work. And they won’t. Western Kansas is filled with farm areas reliant on immigrant labor. Americans aren’t moving out there to work these jobs. The feedlots, the chicken plants, etc all reliant on immigrant labor to work these jobs. Some legal, some illegal. But you talk to the people in these areas and they will basically tell you that they are dependent on this immigrant labor. Shit’s hard fucking work. And a lot of people don’t want to do hard fucking work which should be evidenced by the bodies of those we walk around all day.

What’s always been crazy to me is that the country seems to get so mad at the illegal worker. The country doesn’t get pissed off at the people who profit off the cheap labor. The face of illegal immigrants to most Americans is brown. As in these brown people keep coming over here. It would be better if these people weren’t coming. No doubt in my mind it’s a pretty steady dose of racism in most cases. We’re going to build a wall to keep these people from coming over here.

Why not make the hiring of an illegal worker more punishable? These people often aren’t caught and when they are they are looking at a fine? Oh boy a small fine I think I’ll roll the dice cause I’m making bank off these people. They do it over and over again. And probably smile because they know the people who are angry over illegals immigration aren’t mad at them.

Put some of the people who hire illegal workers in jail for a few years. Yes that would mean we would have to punish wealthy people I know. I know the country has a hard time doing that which is why nobody went to jail over the housing crisis. Build a wall that keeps wealthy people who do this in (like jail) and see the problem go away.

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I disagree. Plenty of Americans are dealing drugs, raping and committing other crimes. We don’t need Mexicans to come here and take those jobs.

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Careful you’re starting to sound like a law and order guy.

An angle you may not have considered. If advocates really care about "migrant workers’ then they wouldn’t want them subject to the horrible treatment of the cartels/coyotes to get here and the slave wages with no safety regs, workers’ comp etc…

You could argue that caring about poor ‘brownish’ people means enforcing immigration law and making sure that work VISA workers are safe and well treated.

I’m all for jailing the owners of companies hiring illegals and exploiting them. Who do we vote for to get that done?

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Nor is the “average” American rushing to fill many Service Industry Jobs, H.

Ask anyone in the Hotel Industry (as a start) if you think it’s not true.