Baltimore City removed all 4 Confederate statues on city grounds last night. That’s sparking some interesting conversations here this morning.
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This is what’s driving me crazy. It’s like somewhere along the line so many people forgot THEY’RE FUCKING NAZIS.
Regardless of who shows up to counter protest, these people are Nazis. Regardless of whether or not they’re in the right (which they’re not), they’re Nazis. Nazi salute, HH tattoos, gas the jews, NAZIS. If ISIS recruited American citizens and they were marching the street, I sure as shit wouldn’t be trying to defend their free speech and right to assemble (because they’re ISIS).
As the Nazis on their best day still make ISIS look like 7 yr old bullies on a playground in Kansas, I could give 2 shits about anything other than the simple fact that “These people are Nazis.”
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Sorry. My family has me raging today.
/endrant
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I genuinely think that it is akin to the anti-vaxxer movement…people have literally forgotten what a real Nazi is, stands for, and holds dear, because we haven’t had it thrown in our faces since it got (nearly) stamped out in the 40s.
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I think that often times when these conversations occur each side sorta fails to adequately express the underlying ideology or purpose of their stance. What you just said is a perfect example of this, I very much doubt anyone here would defend ISIS’s right to speech or assembly; however, a lot of people (including myself) will ardently defend THE right to speech and assembly. Unfortunately, that right gets extended to pieces of shit and we find ourselves having to defend what appears to be a defense for said pieces of shit. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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While I understand what you’re saying, I can’t find a way to get past them being Nazis.
I’ll defend someone’s RIGHT to free speech. When that free speech comes out and makes you an actual Nazi, I stop defending it. I acknowledge these people have the RIGHT to free speech. I then also acknowledge, as they’re Nazis, that they can soundly fuck off and go back to sitting in their mother’s basement trolling 4chan.
Question for all of you who know more about the first amendment and case law than me.
We have a right to assemble, but that right is subject to reasonable restrictions (we can’t hold a T-Nation meetup in the middle of rush hour traffic). Protest permits are controlled at the local level. What is a reasonable restriction?
Is carrying the flag of an enemy of the United States : Swasticka/confederate battle flag/hammer and sickle a reasonable restriction? Would we let ISIS march in the streets because ‘freedom of speech’?
I submit that if you carry the flag of our enemy and advocate for them that is tantamount to treason. Is treason/sedition free speech?
What argument does the ACLU make to get these clowns permits?
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*These conversations are always difficult because some come from the notion of how things should be, others come from how things are, some come from a “common” interpretation of the 1st, and still, others come from a “living document” perspective.
**Lol, just read the “conversations” about immigration or the 2A on here…
***Hell, we’ve argued for days about what the word “militia” means.
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Really tough one for me. Holding my nose and trying not to throw up yes we should let all those people march in the streets as long as they are doing it peacefully. Reasonable restrictions is a slippery slope. Why not ban MLK from marching when it was in violation of social norms or gay advocates, Tea Party being in opposition to the President etc. Where do you draw the line and who decides what the line is?
Still pisses me off 100% and I would prefer that the environment was so bad that Nazis were afraid to march in the streets (right or wrong getting these guys fired from jobs might have that impact). Nazis or ISIS marching in the street boils every part of my body but they do have the right to do so. Actions have consequences however and when you decide to do that don’t be surprised when all the rest of us normal people decide to do something in response.
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This is my problem as well. I’d rather let fringe asshats have their 15 minutes if it means MLK gets his as well.
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“I don’t like what you said, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”
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Think of it this way. These people will be labelled, identified and shamed. I say let all the scum march at once. It’ll make for a more efficient shame machine.
Some of these fucks will lose jobs, or family, or end up on a watchlist. There will be severe consequences for them.
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Yes, it is rather entertaining that they decided to march sans hoods, with tiki torches illuminating their faces, in an era when everyone has a camera in their pocket. Some good planning right there.
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Trump wants to talk jobs well it looks like we may have some openings!
Bill Buckley made the point about false equivalences thusly:
“To say that the CIA and the KGB engage in similar practices is the equivalent of saying that the man who pushes an old lady into the path of a hurtling bus is not to be distinguished from the man who pushes an old lady out of the path of a hurtling bus: on the grounds that, after all, in both cases someone is pushing old ladies around.”
My thoughts exactly on the Nazi-“Alt Left” equivalences.
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Most days I can handle the mouth breathing level of whataboutism I see out of my family. BUT LEST WE FORGET, THESE ARE FUCKING NAZIS.
Hardstop. You’re dealing with Nazis. If you know nothing else, this is still enough.
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It’s almost like, and follow my logic here, it is ALMOST like they are idiots.
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This neo-Nazi approach has been dubbed the “probing approach” by some and has been tried, tested and honed in several European countries, notably Hungary.
First you start with a small, local community with a contentious issue or a grievance - in Hungary it was usually property crime committed by the Roma/Sinti minority.
Then you send your adherents to hold a march - a hundred people or so with black flags and white supremacy symbols and watch the response from law enforcement and the political class. If the ruling class sends some ambiguous signals with a “inappropriate, but…”, “both sides” “I understand the frustration” qualifiers you know you’re on the right track.
Repeat ad nauseam as you gain more adherents as they’re emboldened to crawl under their proverbial rocks into the mainstream political discourse. After a while you gain a substantial foothold and you can dictate terms to the right wing politicians as you influence a significant portion of right votes.
In Hungary the rise of the neo-Nazis was so meteoric with the tacit support of the establishment right that they were able to disrupt the World Jewish Congress and take over public spaces such as squares with their SA-styled militia.
For example, this is a last year’s picture from Budapest, not Charlottesville.
But then again, I think the Trump administration is well acquainted with the “probing approach”. After all, president’s Deputy Security Advisor regularly took part in those marches while he went under the name Sebastyen Lukacs Gorka and not Breitbart approved Sebastian Gorka:
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This is a big part of why I am very, very dubious re Trump’s assertion that there were ‘a great many’ non-racist protesters present. Consider: There are indeed folks out there who don’t have a racist bone in their body, but nonetheless object to the removal of Confederate memorials. (I think they are misguided in their position, but that’s a different subject.)
Now, suppose you are one of those folk, and you show up for what is supposed to be (per your prior understanding) a peaceful protest against one such removal. Question: Once you arrive, and see that 90+% of the other protesters are white supremacists, neo-Nazis, etc, are you–a non-racist individual–really going to stick around and march with these people? Likewise, when you–a peaceful, unarmed individual–note that a significant number of the protesters came prepared to do battle, are you going to hang around? C’mon.
Thus, I find it very hard to believe the president’s claim that the pro-memorial crowd contained a significant proportion of non-racist individuals. This is a case where the old saw about ‘birds of a feather’ would seem to hold.
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Whaaa??? This changes everything.
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