Trump Inauguration Thread

I suppose we disagree. Several reasons it should be a conversation. 1. It is a simple solution to squashing the critics stating voter fraud. 2. More importantly, I think we both agree that SID (state issued ID) should be possessed by all citizens. There seems to be a large minority (elderly, impoverished) that doesn’t posses them. This limits their ability, in many cases, to obtain insurance, basic goods, and travel.

Additionally, aren’t lefties, like yourself, supposed to be all for equality for all minorities?? ← sarcasm.

I don’t know what the COGS is for state-issued ID, but I would imagine the cost of purchasing would offset the cost of issuing.

I would imagine this would have the opposite effect, encouraging every citizen to have a SID would be beneficial to everyone.

‘Simple’? Far from it, I’m afraid. If we could somehow put an ID in the hand of every eligible voter, that would be fine. But the devil is in the details, as they say. Many poor people lack even basic ID (eg, a birth certificate); are you going to give them a voter ID on faith? Likewise, many poor people lack the ability to get to the DMV to pick up an ID–how are you going to get IDs into their hands?

Again, if we had a significant in-person voter fraud problem in this country, the voter-ID pros might outweigh the cons, a few of which I’ve mentioned above. But we don’t have such a problem.

These people don’t travel, obtain insurance, etc, because they can’t afford these things–not because they lack ID. Safe to say, everyone who can afford these things already possesses ID.

Indeed we are, which is why we resist attempts by cynical politicos* to disenfranchise them.

*Not referring to you here.

@sunnbeaches105 also
And I’m arguing that believing that the US can’t manufacture widgets, is as illogical as thinking that only we can make expensive machinery and airplanes. Or your favorite - services.

My deductions:

  1. If a labor intensive widget is made by hand, and said hands can be replaced by a machine for a lowered produced cost - put in the machine and pull the trigger. If it employs 1/10 of the men that were doing it before it offshored, then at least 1/10 now have a job again.

  2. If a country can build war ships, planes, skyscrapers, nuclear - they can build fancy industrial equipment and commercial airplanes. China is trying to get into that business and will when they get bugs worked out. Boeing and Airbus often have hiccups on new models before someone Comac clunker article is posted.

  3. You are ignoring my post that ~$510 BB of our ‘services’ exports are hotel jobs, Passenger fares, Royalty/Licensing fees (which probably employ next to no one) and financial services.

Services contribute one-third of U.S. exports ($687 billion). The largest single category was travel passenger services, at $173 billion. The next category was royalties and license fees, at $128 billion. Passenger fares and other transportation services contributed $87 billion. Government and military contracts added $22 billion. Other private services, such as financial services, added $122 billion. (Source: U.S. Census, Exhibit 3, U.S. Services by Major Category – Exports)

My last thought is why can nearly every Euro and Asian car company come to the US and build cars (granted parted are sourced worldwide) but GM and Ford and a huge number of their suppliers have to run down to Mexico. The US companies barely make money after 100 years, the products are half assed in quality / innovation, and the prices no cheaper than US built. $52,000 for a pickup getting 13mpg???

Do you know what percent of people this is true for? I’d be inclined to think it is a smaller percentage. With voting requirements aside, this is something that should be established in a first-world country such as ours.

This one is difficult to believe. Wouldn’t these same people have a difficult time obtaining food from stores? Again, this seems like a small percentage.

Without falling down a partisan tripping point, how do we know with certainty? I don’t think it’s as big of a deal as pointed out. I do think it exists, but I don’t believe it’s to the level of statistical significance (I also, try not to speak in certainties. ie. statements such as ‘I know with certainty there isn’t voter fraud’)

More importantly, an individual, in a first wold country, should be able to prove their citizenship of their country.

ID is also a requirement for obtaining a job, no?

Well, you’re in luck. I don’t identify with a ‘side’, but consider myself a Cynical Pragmatist.

How do you really feel about minorities? Apparently they’re too stupid to find their way to the DMV and pay $15 for an ID. :wink: Some states have ID’s just for the purpose of voting and they’re free.

As you might imagine, this is a contentious subject. The Brennan Center did a thorough study in 2006, and while a bit dated now, here’s what they found:

As many as 11 percent of United States citizens – more than 21 million individuals – do
not have government-issued photo identification.

Elderly citizens are less likely to possess government-issued photo identification.

Minority citizens are less likely to possess government-issued photo identification.

Citizens with comparatively low incomes are less likely to possess photo identification.

Photo identification often does not reflect current information.

As for being able to get an ID:

As many as 7% of United States citizens – 13 million individuals – do not have ready
access to citizenship documents.

Citizens with comparatively low incomes are less likely to possess documentation
proving their citizenship.

Documentation proving citizenship often does not reflect the citizen’s current name.

It is difficult to believe, until you consider that lawmakers might go out of their way to make it as inconvenient for poor folks as possible. Again from a Brennan Center study:

"The 11 percent of eligible voters who lack the required photo ID must travel to a designated government office to obtain one. Yet many citizens will have trouble making this trip. In the 10 states with restrictive voter ID laws:

–Nearly 500,000 eligible voters do not have access to a vehicle and live more than 10 miles from the nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. Many of them live in rural areas with dwindling public transportation options.
–More than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week.
–1.2 million eligible black voters and 500,000 eligible Hispanic voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. People of color are more likely to be disenfranchised by these laws since they are less likely to have photo ID than the general population.
–Many ID-issuing offices maintain limited business hours. For example, the office in Sauk City, Wisconsin is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. But only four months in 2012 — February, May, August, and October — have five Wednesdays. In other states — Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, and Texas — many part-time ID-issuing offices are in the rural regions with the highest concentrations of people of color and people in poverty.

More than 1 million eligible voters in these states fall below the federal poverty line and live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. These voters may be particularly affected by the significant costs of the documentation required to obtain a photo ID. Birth certificates can cost between $8 and $25. Marriage licenses, required for married women whose birth certificates include a maiden name, can cost between $8 and $20. By comparison, the notorious poll tax — outlawed during the civil rights era — cost $10.64 in current dollars."

This is like asking, how do we know with certainty that there aren’t little green men living on Mars? The short answer is, we can never answer in the negative with utter certainty. Re Mars-men, all we can say is we’ve examined the planet carefully, and thus far haven’t turned up any evidence suggestive of their existence. Likewise, regarding in-person voter fraud, all we can say is we’ve scoured the country for many years looking for it, and have come up with something like 13 confirmed cases out of ~1 billion votes cast.

Not for the unemployed, or for those working in the underground economy (think maids, yard men, sitters, etc).

A happy coincidence: I address this issue in my comment above.

I was just giving you shit. I’ll read on ha.

1 Like

Yes, I have read this particular study.

I’m sure they drive more than ten miles to hit up Wal-Mart. I say this as someone who was a manager at a rural Wal-Mart, during college.

Well, my point was that they can’t afford these things (travel, insurance, etc) because they don’t have a job, which requires an ID.

I’m surprised you didn’t jump on my ‘every first world citizen should have proof of citizenship’ comment.

Do we agree that not having ID is a problem?

You all are reaping. Enjoy it. You have no idea of the fire you are playing with. The world fundamentally changed in 2008 for one reason and it changed in another in November. I’d like to see it kept under some control, but it won’t happen if the left keeps up their act.

Study bla bla bla…if there were just one or two forms of quality ID’s there would be less fraud. Some things just make sense. Like when you squat with a heavy barbell on your back and eat a lot you get bigger and stronger. Are you one of those guys that needs a study before you agree with that?

I’m not sure what you mean. I couldn’t live the life I do without ID. But millions of Americans do live without them. Would those individuals prefer to have a valid ID? I’m sure they would. Do they have the time and/or money to jump through multiple time-consuming and expensive hoops to get one, solely to be able to vote? Many don’t–and that’s what the groups pushing voter-ID laws are counting on. The question is, is in-person voter fraud such a problem in this country that we should consider the disenfranchisement of those individuals a sad-but-necessary form of electoral ‘collateral damage’?

To which I can only respond, 13. Thirteen out of ~1 billion votes cast.

It will always be a thing as long as there is no voter ID. There is no better way to tell if Joe Smith is really Joe Smith…and YOU KNOW IT.

I win.

(your turn)

All the Left is ‘guilty’ of is electing an AA man POTUS. Would you like me to apologize for that?

As for the rest, it is owned lock, stock and barrel by the Right. You want to see it controlled? Talk to them, not the likes of me. We didn’t set the tiger’s tail alight.

I am scientist at heart so forgive me if I elect to use data to determine policy pertaining to large groups of people where the opportunity provides itself. That’s called being responsible.

Right, but he won white women (Romney couldn’t do it) by a decent margin. Even after that clip came out with him stating that he wanted to grab their pussy’s.

He also won a higher percentage of blacks than Romney.

No, it’s called being anal.

Would you implement a policy at one of your businesses without evaluating how well it worked?

If suddenly they were checking finger prints to match a set given earlier of every person that voted would you need a study to show that fraud would be miniscule?

The more proof someone coughs up the less likely there is cheating.

And no I don’t want a national finger print registry…just an example.

Calm down and continue to play the part of a bright young up and coming left winger who is very personable but, of course, wrong most of the time.

:sunglasses:

That depends on the level of investment.

But…

There are many ways to evaluate something. I use plenty of common sense. Do I sell a large ticket item without checking the customers credit card BEFORE the product leaves the store? No.

Should we allow people to hold the very heart of democracy in the palm of their hands without demanding quality ID? NO