I didn’t read the comments section. I never, ever read the comments section for reasons of trying to maintain mental health.
Was that the jist of the comments - that conservative voters had an obligation to write letters to Congressional leaders demanding opposition against Trump, and conservative voters forfeited respect if they didn’t?[quote=“anon71262119, post:280, topic:229515”]
FWIW, I think Sykes is right. My failure to write letters when I see actions that violate my principles, or that I think threaten our democracy is not justified because I think these NYT readers dislike me intensely, or because they think I have no true moral foundation, nor is silence justified because I believe they would not do the same if the shoe were on the other foot.
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I generally agree, but I think a point some non-conservatives are making (sometimes self-servingly) is a fair one, which is there is a thing called Conservatism, and like it or not, Conservatism’s credibility is now disastrously tied to Trump unless conservatives are willing to publicly withdraw their support. Liberals are saying “you helped animate this Frankenstein’s monster, but you were under the false illusion of controlling it the whole time, and you should have known better, and now you’re obligated to help stop the monster from running amok in the village.”
Again, self-serving for liberals to say? Yes. Nonetheless true? Yes.
Of course you would say this. But, even you must admit that it is premature to assume such a thing. He has already appointed to the Supreme Court a conservative Justice. What if he follows through with other things on the conservative agenda?
Far to early to say that conservatives need to publicly withdraw support from Trump.
Absolutely not. Trump is a known commodity. Rush Limbaugh of all people has been pounding the table exclaiming Trump isn’t a conservative and never has been, so there’s no reason to hold out hope, if you’re an actual, principled conservative.
Smart people know when to stop throwing money at a bad investment.
Curious on this, as I thought Rush and Hannity were die hard Trump supporters. I don’t listen to their shows so not very informed on their latest opinions. Care to elaborate?
Many of the comments were just anti-Trump, and lots of agreement with Sykes.
Many more were about how we could expect this “turning a blind eye” from the dummies who have always been primarily motivated by greed and racism. Any conservative respect for the rule of law was always a big joke. Just the general, “They never had any moral values to begin with, and now they’re showing us who they really are. Again.” Some variation on taking the moral high ground as a form of progressive group identity. “We’re the good guys.”
If you have a right-leaning friend or family member who you genuinely respect, who you think is a good person and not an idiot, you can go back and read that as if you are them. Read the comments too, and imagine if you think it would be motivating.
Agree. Two wrongs doesn’t make a right. To talk about how Conservatives treated Obama poorly, is also “what aboutism,” and it’s unlikely to help us now. To talk about how liberals should have written letters in support of their conservative friends during the IRS scandal, is irrelevant to what Trump is doing now. Just because someone doesn’t treat me with decency and respect, doesn’t mean I should do the same to them.
Still, think about the effectiveness of this tactic. Let’s shame them. “You conservatives better be writing some anti-Trump letters or, or, or… Some progressives who already think you’re an immoral jerk who doesn’t have two brain cells to rub together, will keep thinking what they already think about you!!”
So, regardless of whether he 'acts" like a conservative and actually does all of the things that a conservative would do as President, like rain down tomahawk missiles on Syria and bomb caves where Isis leaders were hiding. And appoint a conservative Justice to the Supreme Court protecting the 2nd amendment and yes…slow down illegal immigration…in your eyes he’s still not a conservative right?
Hey Drew you didn’t ask me but I can tell you as a conservative that Sean Hannity is the biggest Trump lackey that God has ever made. Rush on the other hand strays from the path now and then as Thunderbolt suggests. As I’ve said before I listen to and watch (and read) most of the right and left wing programs
I don’t listen to either of their shows either - but I’ve seen snippets on Limbaugh acknowledging that Trump isn’t a conservative (but he still supports him anyway, and so should conservatives!). Also, the Sykes article we’re all alluding back to and discussing makes mention of this - and may link to Limbaugh’s site? I can’t reference it at the moment, not sure if it does.
I agree, and I don’t think any conservatives should be writing letters in order to win favors from liberal-minded folks who demand this as a condition of the conservative regaining respect in the eyes of the liberal. That thinking emanates from the same self-satisfied, self-righteousness smugness that helped get a Trump elected in the first place. Maybe conservatives do need to write letters, but liberals also need to be starting their own letter campaign to the heartland voters they sneered down their nose at for far too long.
To appeal to a true friend across the aisle to work together, motivated by the good of our country feels very different.
I thought Sykes was saying, “let’s all be motivated by rule of law and doing the right thing. Let’s care more about right, than about sticking it to the other side.” You have to have some mutual respect and trust for people to want to do that. He was picking on the Trump supporters and all the conservatives who are “guilty if they aren’t protesting Trump, or if they’re laughing at the special snowflakes.” No wonder the NYT readers loved it. It affirmed them, and their belief that conservatives are hollow where it counts. Anyone who is honest can see that the article could easily be flipped around. There is no shortage of mutual contempt and tribalism.
A Dem friend was at my house for Mother’s Day dinner last night. She’s a really knowledgeable person who grew up in a DC politically connected family and was a correspondent for Time. We were agreeing that this thing with Comey looks very unethical. What makes that possible? There is mutual respect and deep friendship there. My children wanted to make dinner for her on Mother’s Day because they think of her as an aunt. If I thought she disapproved of me, or had contempt for me, I’d likely take some delight in giving it right back.
This lack of good will we have going in our country will not be easily fixed. My son recently said that he’s less convinced that it’s about two ideological extremes, and more convinced that it’s about an excess of contempt. Hearts that have grown cold toward the other. I think that’s quite profound.
I must have missed this paragraph of Sykes’ article. And if this refers to the people who left a comment on the article, why do you care what they think? Why place such an emphasis on so obviously biased a sample? Should I start perusing the Comments sections on Breitbart articles, and base my opinion of conservatives on what I read therein?
Good point. Would you mind mentioning it to Mr. Trump and his enthusiasts?
‘Special snowflakes,’ huh? Interesting choice of words for someone who’s in the midst of a finger-wagging about comity.
In the context of the article, Sykes is taking to task conservatives who focus on attacking “… (2) over-the-top liberals, (3) hypocrites on the left.” My Dem dad would like the people who are demanding safe spaces and trigger warnings to grow up. They don’t speak for him, just as the KKK and the Westboro Baptists do not represent me. “Special snowflakes” was a reference to the writer’s use of “over-the-top liberals.” Perhaps I should have used his words to avoid confusion.
Why do you care what I think? Why in the world would you want to engage someone with an upside down morality? Why does anyone care about what people on the other side of the aisle are saying? You’ve told me before that my perception of what progressives think of conservatives is inaccurate. Apparently, you’re much nicer than the people making comments at the NYT, but I saw what you wrote to Duce about upside down morality. Should I assume that you’re a representative sample?
I thought I made it pretty clear that I was talking about the comments, not the article. Sorry if that was confusing. I elaborated on my discouragement after reading the comment section after Bolt asked me a question about the comments. Mufasa, Antiquity, Tyler, Bolt and I all agreed with the article. And usmcc and Aragorn have certainly expressed similar views about the Trump phenomenon.
I less quibling about the Republican message than I am about the Democratic message. I admit my summary was insufficiently pithy, but my only actual point was that the republicans actually tapped into the way most Americans felt, and the left stuck on Identity and PC politics missed it by a mile or more.
Good post Pat and the truth is they continue to miss it as they think the typical voter will applaud their “resistance movement.” And that’s what I mean by hate blinding otherwise intelligent people. They don’t realize it right now because the big name dems are deep into a Trump bashing party along with the left wing media. But the left is going to take another beating in the mid-term elections if Trump has any success at all his first two years. The average voter (not the elite west and east coasters) do not appreciate what has been going on since Trump has been elected.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
I have a prediction: If the left continue down the road of Identity politics and PC policies, they will not only not gain seats, they will lose even more.
