T Nation

TRT Torture


#1

My blood work has always shown low test, high prolactin and good estrogen. I've always been tired. I was put on androgel for three months and did nothing. I was putin on injections, started at 100mg/10 days and over months found a sweet spot of 200mg/week.

New endo says that my prolactin is the cause of my low test(WHICH IVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG NO ONE WANTS TO LISTEN!!) and that he is stopping me on test and giving me dostinex.

Now three weeks into dostinex my prolactin is at 0, and test is at 114 (200-800). It had to be my suggestion that maybe a prolactin of 0 wasn't a good idea and that we should reduce the dosage. Why couldn't he think of that?!?! Do you all concur, is PRL of 0 bad?

If my test doesnt come back up, he said well try clomid or hcg, and if those don't work last resort I'll go back onto the test. I feel horrible, so tired, I can't even make it to the gym. I hate this.

Any ideas, suggestions or if you think my doc is following the wrong path, please let me know. Thanks guys


#2

Could be because yout LH production is shut down due to the Test injections. In other words, you are not producing your own Test due to the fact that your body recognized the external Test, and down-regulated your own production. Now you have crashed when taken off the injections cold-turkey. HCG may actually help. Avoid clomid. Not suprised you feel like hell.

I know that high prolactin levels in men are bad, not sure about levels that are too low.


#3

Any reason why?


#4

I know that it is generally not recommended due to the fact that it can increase estrogen. Some searching on this site should provide plenty of information. Others may want to comment on this.


#5

Clomid has really nasty estrogenic side effects for some. Nolvadex can be used.

TRT shutdown your HPTA. Even if you are producing LH, your testes are not ready and will need to physically recover. You need 250iu SC EOD hCG to recover the testes and then switch nolvadex to start LH, then taper off of nolvadex. You should be taking anastrozole 0.5mg/wk in divided doses all through this and for a few weeks after to avoid estrogen rebound. You need to watch for the testes recovering bulk and firmness to time the transitions.

What dose of dostinex?

Some have stated that PRL has no known purpose in men other than to limit sexual activity. We inherit many things from the female blueprint.


#6

Most docs are ignorant or criminal. Avoid HRT at all costs.

If you must -- have one doc inject you every 2 weeks with T. Have another doc script
you Androgel. Use the gel in the second week only.

Don't take any of that other crap, except some GH if you can get it.


#7

This is ILLEGAL. You cannot have two docs script a schedule 3 Drug. THis is terrible advice dude, seriously why would you give this advice?


#8

KSMan, thank you and I'm glad to see that you are well.
I'm taking 2mg per week of dostinex and I'm reducing to 1mg. Do you have any support to your advice so I can suggest it to my endo? Thank you.


#9

I have levels of prolactin below 0.3 every time. I've not had any bad side effects that I know of.


#10

In many cases, 0.5 mg dostinex per week is effective, but it depends on how much the pituitary is malfunctioning. 2.0mg does seem excessive. If you want to be in control, take less. 1.0mg might work well.

If you start doing things like that, what is your target level for PRL? You need to have an objective.

What is that dostinex costing you?

How has you mood changed while taking dostinex?

Where is E2?


#11

Because it works.


#12

Regardless of the legality, it seems like this would give you the worst of both worlds - high E2 conversion due to the spikes in T due to the large injections, and increased DHT conversion due to the transdermal.


#13

My endo mentioned a PRL level of around 4 as ideal. The dostinex is not costing much at all, but I don't have the numbers with me. My mood, well it has been terrible. I've crashed, my T is extremely low and I hate the way that I feel. He didn't give me my e2 levels last test, not sure if he tested it or not but it's always been <35. I'm going to mention a more precise e2 measurement next time.


#14

Some people LIKE the high conversion to DHT; at least those not susceptible to male pattern baldness. DHT is not that bad. Dr. C attributes the high success rate of transdermals in resolving libido issues due to the high conversion to DHT. However, High DHT+High E2=Prostate problems.


#15

Listen to KSman. Get prolactin under control and then run a PCT. See where that gets you.


#16

Not for me. Half a tab of Clomid brought my T value from 240 to 790 ng/dl over the course of 4 wks and I felt like a million bucks!

I might be wrong, but from my understanding, clomid does not raise estrogen, but is a SERM.


#17

I may be mistaken but youre Androgel right? Why are you using that if the Clomid worked so well for you.


#18

I did not say all, why do you have to say "not me" all of the time.

Clomid increases T and that increases T-->E2 rates and E2 levels do increase. Nothing debatable. All SERMs do this. Clomid is chemically an synthetic estrogen. With some guys it will activate estrogen receptors in parts of the brain and create emotional, libido/ED and mood problems. In other men its does not.

If one takes clomid and stops suddenly, T levels drop and the residual R2 levels can shut down the HPTA. By tapering out of clomid, much of that can be avoided. However, using anastrozole appropriately can keep E2 down while on clomid and avoid the estrogen rebound issue and one can then cruise on lower dose anastrozole to keep E2 at lower levels to create a more HPTA friendly environment. It is really sad how most body builders have no idea about this aspect, while they all tell each other about bro-PCT.

Clomid docks into estrogen receptors [and then does nothing] and thus block estrogens. Some men would appear to have receptors that are fully activated by clomid in some tissues. Nolvadex does not have this problem.


#19

Are you saying that when I taper off the nolvadex I'll still be on the hCG indefinitely? I'm going to propose this to my endo, we'll see what he says. Any other suggestions? I hate this, my T is at 110 (200-800) and I'm fucking 21 years old.


#20

I only used clomid for a few months, then switched to Androgel, which I've been on ever since, for past 8 yrs.

Androgel works great. I just got my lab result last wk and I'm at 779 ng/dl. I usually test about 800 to 1000. My doc hooked me up with an Androgel discount card. I <3 Androgel.

He said he'll switch to clomid or HCG if the time comes I want a kid.