T Nation

TRT - Started 4 Weeks Ago


#1

Hello

I have started cypionate shots on July 17, 2013, almost 4 weeks ago.

My current protocol:
day 1 - 300 IU HCG (sub-q)
day 2 - 50 mg cypionate (IM)
day 3 - 0.25 mg Arimidex

My symptoms were: no sex drive, and weak-to-absent orgasmic sensation. So far, no improvement of symptoms. Moreover, nighttime and morning erections became weak or absent. I think 4 weeks of no improvements is enough time to declare a loss of a battle, so I want to start looking at other things as well, not just T and E.

1) As of a week ago my estrogen was 9. It is low, possibly responsible for all what is going on. I stopped taking Arimidex, hoping that estrogen will rise. I am scheduled to do the blood test tomorrow, and I will report my results. So, low E is one possible explanation. but I believe a week off Arimidex should shoot me up, so it may be that my problem now is high E.

2) When I was on Testopel treatment prior to cypionate (in May) I did the comprehensive blood panel, and DHT came in on the low end (14). So I might have a low 5-AR activity. This fact is supported by slow facial hair growth. It is another possible source of problems? I am testing it tomorrow, will report back the results.

3) In May I did 4-point cortisol test and morning cortisol came in low. My HRT doctor advised to order and take adrenal support supplement Adreset. I read on some other boards that some guys struggling with HRT were able to alleviate symptoms by taking adrenal medications. As a side note, I do not quite understand how adrenal function can impact sexual function in such a huge way. If you can explain it, I would appreciate it.

4) Another possibility is that my SHBG is low (9 in May). Apparently low SHBG can result is hormonal fluctuations. As far as regulating SHBG, not much can be done, because SHBG is based on balance of other hormones, and it cannot be supplemented.

5) My HRT doctor advised to raise cypionate to 60 and even 70 mg E3D, but at the moment I do not believe it is the issue, because my latest TT = 912 (1 week ago), so the level is decent. But I am not opposed to upping the dose, just do not see the rationale.

6) Thyroid does not seem to be the source of the problem, measured in May:
T4, FREE 1.2 0.8-1.8 ng/dL
T3, FREE 3.2 2.3-4.2 pg/mL

I know that 3.5 weeks is not yet the end of hope, some bodybuilders pinning 500 mg a week start seeing results in weeks 4-6, but I believe that it is rather an exception, and not the rule.

So, I am asking for your help - any ideas will be HUGELY appreciated. I am REALLY in need of help right now.


#2

[quote]Kwn wrote:

  1. As of a week ago my estrogen was 9. It is low, possibly responsible for all what is going on. I stopped taking Arimidex, hoping that estrogen will rise. I am scheduled to do the blood test tomorrow, and I will report my results. So, low E is one possible explanation. but I believe a week off Arimidex should shoot me up, so it may be that my problem now is high E.
    [/quote]

As you surmised low E2 would explain some of what you describe. Low to mid twenties is the goal.

Post new lab results when you get them.


#3

New results:
TT=885
E2=40.9

TT seems to have stabilized, it was 912 a week ago. Lat week E2=9, I stopped taking Arimidex, and in one week it shot to 41. What do you guys think? I was on E3D protocol, including Arimidex (0.25 E3D). I want to be around 25 on E2, so should I cut my dose of Arimidex to 1/8 E3D?

Any help is greatly appreciated.


#4

When were your testopel pellets inserted?

You would be one of those “lucky” over-responders to anastrozole. You nailed it. Cut dose to 1/8th. This can really only be done with a liquid. Dissolve tablets in vodka or go with a liquid research chem. low E2 will wreck your libido. Have you experienced an increase with your rise in E2?

Do you have all your labs posted somewhere?


#5

[quote]Kaynon311 wrote:
When were your testopel pellets inserted?

You would be one of those “lucky” over-responders to anastrozole. You nailed it. Cut dose to 1/8th. This can really only be done with a liquid. Dissolve tablets in vodka or go with a liquid research chem. low E2 will wreck your libido. Have you experienced an increase with your rise in E2?

Do you have all your labs posted somewhere? [/quote]

No I have not experienced a rise while I was moving from 9 to 40, and this is what scares me. It looks like there is no sweet spot. Does that mean that I am pushing too much testosterone to my body? I have a low SHBG = 9.


#6

SHGB is not well understood. It’s documented that lowering E2 will raise SHGB, which is great for most guys UNLESS you started with a low SHGB to begin with. So the reverse would be that raising E2 will raise SHGB, but that doesn’t always seem to work.

Libido is a tricky beast also. I’m currently battling low libido myself. It was great when I was on topicals, and converting more to DHT. Low DHT can contribute to low libido as you know. There aren’t a lot of options to raise DHT in the United States. The only one I have really found is to supplement your injections with a topical.

Andractim DHT cream and proviron (which decreases SHGB, FYI), will increase DHT and if you google them you’ll find plenty of guys saying they had awesome libido on them.

I know this is another rabbit hole. I wish I had a better answer for you.


#7

[quote]Kaynon311 wrote:
SHGB is not well understood. It’s documented that lowering E2 will raise SHGB, which is great for most guys UNLESS you started with a low SHGB to begin with. So the reverse would be that raising E2 will raise SHGB, but that doesn’t always seem to work.

Libido is a tricky beast also. I’m currently battling low libido myself. It was great when I was on topicals, and converting more to DHT. Low DHT can contribute to low libido as you know. There aren’t a lot of options to raise DHT in the United States. The only one I have really found is to supplement your injections with a topical.

Andractim DHT cream and proviron (which decreases SHGB, FYI), will increase DHT and if you google them you’ll find plenty of guys saying they had awesome libido on them.

I know this is another rabbit hole. I wish I had a better answer for you.[/quote]

My doctor advised that applying Androgel to scrotum can raise DHT, reasons being scrotum is packed with 5-AR and skin is thin making absorption better. How did you supplement topicals?


#8

[quote]Kwn wrote:

[quote]Kaynon311 wrote:
SHGB is not well understood. It’s documented that lowering E2 will raise SHGB, which is great for most guys UNLESS you started with a low SHGB to begin with. So the reverse would be that raising E2 will raise SHGB, but that doesn’t always seem to work.

Libido is a tricky beast also. I’m currently battling low libido myself. It was great when I was on topicals, and converting more to DHT. Low DHT can contribute to low libido as you know. There aren’t a lot of options to raise DHT in the United States. The only one I have really found is to supplement your injections with a topical.

Andractim DHT cream and proviron (which decreases SHGB, FYI), will increase DHT and if you google them you’ll find plenty of guys saying they had awesome libido on them.

I know this is another rabbit hole. I wish I had a better answer for you.[/quote]

My doctor advised that applying Androgel to scrotum can raise DHT, reasons being scrotum is packed with 5-AR and skin is thin making absorption better. How did you supplement topicals?[/quote]

Androgel product guide specifically advises against applying it to the scrotum. This might be referring to using androgel as the sole TRT, which would be 40-80mg/day, so it would probably make DHT increase to the point of being a risk to hair loss and prostate issues.

I would contact them directly and find out if that is their reasoning. If you do contact them, please post their response here. I’m curious myself.


#9

Just received DHT results:

Dihydrotestosterone 39 ng/dL ES
Reference Range:
Adult Male: 30 - 85

What do you guys think? Can DHT be a source of problems?


#10

It has to do with the way your body handles Test.


#11

I did not quite understand the last comment.

Any constructive feedback?


#12

I added a link to my previous post, and since it isn’t contained in the T-Nation domain, they erased it.
Google “trt and low shbg” and read the thread titled
Anyone here with low SHBG who are doing well on TRT .

I, like you, have low SHBG, and it causes you to have high levels of free test but
your body clears it very fast. Since T-Cyp and T-Enth are long chain esters and release
very slowly, you do not get enough of the actual testosterone at once to
feel the libido effect and feelings of well being that you are reading about in other peoples experiences.

I use T-Prop, it is a very short ester and it produces its intended effect
very fast as it has a very short half life. This fast acting version is what makes
it work for men with low SHBG. Your body will still clear it fast, but it will have already
expressed its effects. It needs to be injected every other day at the very least.
I inject 25mg every other day with 12.5 aromasin at the time of injection. Some guys do
even better with smaller daily injections.

For me, it’s night and day difference over Cyp or Enth which were relatively useless in my case.

Read the thread I pointed out and see if the discussion rings true for you.


#13

Not hi-jacking. This benefits OP as well.

PK,

I’ve heard you say before that you do much better on Prop than Cyp or Enth. Can you describe the changes you noticed when you switched from long esters to short?


#14

PKNY, thank you so much for info. Could you PM me the link? I googled it, but the thread does not seem to contain any such discussion.

Couple of questions:

  1. How low is your SHBG?
  2. I understand that you had no libido effect on test-C / test-E. Is this correct?
  3. Do you inject sub-q or IM?
  4. If your body (low SHBG) clears T quickly, then blood test should show low T levels in spite of injections, correct? Then why even low SHBG guys report high TT blood test results? Something just does not add up here for me…
  5. Do you know a lot of guys with low SHBG who do well on prop shots?

Thank you


#15

PM’s don’t work here any longer.
The thread is there, just checked…18 entries.
You can also google "TRT AND LOW SHBG"
or HOW TO RAISE SHBG etc and you will find
many discussions with men in the same boat as us.

  1. How low is your SHBG?

My SHBG is 12

  1. I understand that you had no libido effect on test-C / test-E. Is this correct?

Yes, very little to no libido on Cyp or Enth. I did have some libido effect on Androgel.

  1. Do you inject sub-q or IM?

I inject Prop IM, usually in my delts. I use a 29g 1/2 slin pin.
I also use HCG but just 250iu once per week. I use it to keep my boys from turning to mush,
but I have noticed that it makes it more difficult to manage e2.
I don’t like SUBQ, it leaves hard nodules in my skin that last a few days…YMMV.

I feel best with 25mg Prop EOD along with 12.5 aromasin at the time of the shot.
More and I lose the libido, good feelings effect.
I do blast every few months at 400mg per week, I gain strength and size but my
libido, mood and overall energy levels suffer.

  1. If your body (low SHBG) clears T quickly, then blood test should show low T levels in spite of injections, correct? Then why even low SHBG guys report high TT blood test results? Something just does not add up here for me…

Yes, but it depends on what ester you are using, and when the blood was sampled in relation
to the time you took your last injection. For example, if you are using Cyp/Enth, your total T
and Free T will come back higher for a longer period because of the length of the ester. The length
and dosage (100mg-200mg cyp) will stay in your system longer and keep your free T way high, even if your
total T is in range.

With smaller EOD prop injections, neither value will stay elevated for long periods as with CYP or ENTH
because of the short length of the prop ester. Thus, your free T will not get to levels
that make you feel bad, or rob you of your libido. And, even if they do they will clear quickly as Prop is
so short lived.

  1. Do you know a lot of guys with low SHBG who do well on prop shots?

I had read that short acting esters at smaller amounts help, but I fell on to the empirical information by accident.
Last year while blasting, I got a btl of : T prop/Masteron prop/Tren Prop blend.

I was taking a 1/2 cc dose every few days along with 400mg per week cyp, and I noticed a day after
the shot my libido and sex drive were through the roof. I thought it was the Masteron, and from prior Tren use I knew it
wasn’t the TREN…I gave no thought to the prop.

After some research I believed the compound that was responsible was the Masteron Prop. I procured a btl
and began using it…it had some body hardening qualities, but no libido.

Then I remembered some threads talking about huge libido response (even for guys with normal SHBG) on
prop. BOOM! It made sense now, it was the prop that gave me the response I was looking for in
TRT. I quickly procured T Prop 100mg/ml and in two shots my suspicions were confirmed.
I’ve never looked back, or felt so good in my entire life.

@Kanyon
Switching to Prop gave me the experience I read about from guys who got the most out of TRT.
It gives me a longer fuse in terms of temper, I have more overall energy. I am always ready to do
something goofy with my kids, things I would have sloughed off in the past as I was too tired.

The libido thing is huge, my wife has always referred to my penis as “snaky” (lol), now she calls it
THE ANGRY SNAKE. Married 10 years + two kids and several businesses, most men at 44
have tapped out in the bdrm. Enter Prop, and my sex life has never been better. It’s common place
for me to have the erections I had at 14 in school for no reason, the ones that won’t go away. I day dream
and send dirty texts to my wife all the time, she loves it, and she loves the more adventurous,
energy filled me.

In the gym, the gains come steady, they require hard work, but they come a 25mg EOD. I also have the motivation
and energy to get there. In the past I tried everything in terms off workout and diet, and was labeled
a “hard gainer” by three trainers. The gains do come faster with more Test (blast), but
as I wrote above, everything else suffers.

Hope this information helps.


#16

PKNY, more questions for you:

  1. How long did you stay on prop?

  2. How do find a pharmacy which sells prop?

  3. Did prop affect your erections and orgasms?

Thank you for your huge help


#17

[quote]Kwn wrote:
PKNY, more questions for you:

  1. How long did you stay on prop?

  2. How do find a pharmacy which sells prop?

  3. Did prop affect your erections and orgasms?

Thank you for your huge help[/quote]

  1. I am still on Prop, I’ll never change that.

  2. I have a script for T-Cyp, but I have the typical Dr. that wont test E2
    without a fight, yet alone spend more than 3 mins with me on my
    annual check up. So, I purchase my prop from an underground supplier.

To my knowledge, there is no ready made prop in the US.
But, I have read accounts of patients with very good docs that will actually
write scripts for prop, and they are filled through compound pharmacies.

If you choose to go underground, I cannot tell you where to get it, but I can
tell you how to go about it. I have described the process in other threads
in the past as well.

  1. Google sex drive and test prop and read some of the threads,
    or just search for it in the nation site. You will find that most
    men that try it see their sex drive increase way more than Cyp or Enth.

In my case, its better than my teens, erection quality is off the hook, but
better yet, the desire for sex is always present.
I had a vasectomy after my second child was born, since then my orgasms have
never been the same, but with prop they are definitely better.


#18

[quote]PKNY wrote:

[quote]Kwn wrote:
PKNY, more questions for you:

  1. How long did you stay on prop?

  2. How do find a pharmacy which sells prop?

  3. Did prop affect your erections and orgasms?

Thank you for your huge help[/quote]

  1. I am still on Prop, I’ll never change that.

  2. I have a script for T-Cyp, but I have the typical Dr. that wont test E2
    without a fight, yet alone spend more than 3 mins with me on my
    annual check up. So, I purchase my prop from an underground supplier.

To my knowledge, there is no ready made prop in the US.
But, I have read accounts of patients with very good docs that will actually
write scripts for prop, and they are filled through compound pharmacies.

If you choose to go underground, I cannot tell you where to get it, but I can
tell you how to go about it. I have described the process in other threads
in the past as well.

  1. Google sex drive and test prop and read some of the threads,
    or just search for it in the nation site. You will find that most
    men that try it see their sex drive increase way more than Cyp or Enth.

In my case, its better than my teens, erection quality is off the hook, but
better yet, the desire for sex is always present.
I had a vasectomy after my second child was born, since then my orgasms have
never been the same, but with prop they are definitely better.

[/quote]

Sorry Kwn. One more question for PK. I’m trying to see if there is any correlation between SHBG and Test Prop.

PK,

Can you post, or email me, a test result (TT, FT, and SHBG if you have it) from when you were on test cyp and when you changed to prop?

kaynon311@gmail.com


#19

Kanyon,
Here are my last #'s using T-cpy 200mg every 2 weeks.
Tested 5 days after the injection.

From Quest:
Testosterone total 1135 H 250-1100pg/dl
Free Testosterone 377.4 H 35-155pg/ml
Estradiol 44 H < OR-39pg/ml
No SHBG test at this point, but you can deduce it from the ratios above.

Last labs with prop (and EOD self injection)
(taken 2 days after last injection of 25mg T-prop)
Testosterone 395 250-1100pg/dl
Free Testosterone 132 35-155pg/ml

No Estradiol was pulled (my doc always fights me on it).


#20

I called some pharmacies, and it appears that for some reason big pharma in US does not have commecially available propionate.

Can you explain it?

But there are compounding pharmacies which make propionate. Here is the kicker though - If they mix a product (say 10 ml of 100 mg/ml), they need to test it for stability and sterility. It can cost up to $400. Once it is tested, say, for 6 months period, and ‘certified’, then they can sell it. Some pharmacies have propionate already tested and they sell it prepared. But they of course require RX.

Can anyone add to this ‘propionate knowledge base’?
PKNY, you can get a legitimate propionate from compounders. Did you try to do that?

Also, I understand that situation with propionate is different in Europe. Doctors there actually use prop to treat patients. Is it also an RX medication in Europe?