T Nation

TRT? PCT 10 Years Later? Help


#1

G’day. I’ve read numerous posts and gained alot of useful information. Especially from Ksman :+1:. I created my own thread because i think my case is unique. I will post lab results etc but i will start with my story and try to make it as short as possible…

I’m 29 years of age. In my late teens i used alot of sus, tren, prop, winstrol. I tried cyp and probably some others in there. I wouldn’t say i cycled correctly nor have i ever to this day. Taken 1 AI, or done any PCT work. I was young, uneducated and stupid i guess…

So obviously i gained about 18kg from memory at the time. How much i kept back then, i could d not say. I’ve obviously experienced testicular shrinkage (atrophy), not to mention out of whack hormones.

Around 4-5 months ago. I decided to change my lifestyle. As I was getting a big gut and looking like an old man. I only got up too 90kg. But with a very unflattering “beer” style looking gut. I currently weigh 75kg with still an unflattering gut to my eye. But everyone I know has complemented so much on the changes. I’m about 5 ft 10-11" for the record. Anyhow so to detail a bit more about the last 10 years.

I stopped using drugs, cocaine, ecstasy, marijuana, amphetamines about 6 years ago. Never looked back. But I guess I have been using alcohol and take away food over the past 6 years in a negative way. So as I said, 4-5 months ago. I stopped drinking, eating shit. Walking every night. Sometimes jogging. Lifting weights before or after work (Which I’ve done on and off for 10 years) and I’ve managed to drop 15kg. And definently have opened up a new chapter in my life. And will never go back to the sad life of drinking everyday, eating shit 3,4 5 x a day, and even gambling for that matter (horse racing). So I’ve made some significant changes in the past few months, even ended some relationships etc, to really put my best foot forward.

I’m here on t nation. Because now that my mind is clear and I am really happy and positive, I can still feel that there’s something just not right. And I know it’s my hormones. Bloodwork proves this but also 2 weeks ago I started using the supplement DIM. Changes were unbelievable in the 1st week. My self worth, my energy, my libido, my erections all improved dramatically. Then after a week it started to taper off and I was getting the lump in the bottom of throat feeling where your Thyroid gland is. So something was definitely happening. Positive or negative. I don’t know. So in the 2nd week I had some old I Force Nutrition - tripinol xp… So this is where things get more interesting for me.

With these 2 combined in the past week I had started to feel old inklings of myself. It’s very hard to explain. But without sounding like a whacked ****. It’s as if just your everyday senses, like just being here on earth, living life lol. Your everyday senses around you. THEY HAD COME BACK. and I felt alive. Now whilst I say this. It’s also like it was teasing me because. It only partially opened it up and made me feel this way. As in, its short lived and its not strong enough to really fix or help my hormone imbalance.

So I’m here asking for help in regards too my situation. I guess I’ve used drugs alcohol and bad food over the years to deal with not feeling right after incorrect use of steroids as a teenager.

For more information I guess I should add. I sometimes have high libido. Sometimes nothing. Sometimes my erections are strong, sometimes they need more effort. I know this is normal per say but with my effects with (everything I will say) are always on the more extreme end of either scale and don’t stay in the norm. When it comes too testistuclar atrophy. My nuts are definitely smaller then they were before I used steroids. But the thing is it fluctuates everyday. But like I said. To the extreme. Sometimes with sex or masturbation they will try and hide. There’s been numerous times during sex I’ll be forced to used my hand to prevent one trying to escape inside me. Sometimes with masturbation also. But this is not the case everytime. So it can be frustrating as sometimes. They’re bulging and hang low as normal. But will fluctuate, everyday, all day. I MUST SAY, after the DIM over the past 2 weeks. My nuts do have that dead feeling again and are trying to hide way more than usual.

I may have missed some points. But for now. This is why I’m here. I’ve recently called an old mate and talked to him about it. He still uses steroids. I want to run my own TRT. But I thought I’d ask advice first. Does anyone with a situation at all similar to mine. Think it would be beneficial to me to run (don’t laugh) but a PCT 10 years later, before I start using test eth. I will be only using 125mg test eth a week split in two doses. With armidex on hand. To probably start using after about 2 weeks. In very small amounts. To see how my body reacts. I will get bloods done every 2 - 4 weeks to to check on test, est, thyroid, cholesterol, liver levels etc. To see what effect it has.

I have access to HCG, nolva, proviron, clamid. Whatever may be needed.

Would love to know if anyone thinks I should run some HCG and maybe some nolva with a little proviron to try and bring my testes back further before I embark on my own TRT. This is really big decision for me. So any input welcome. My bloods are on the low end of normal T and high end of E. They are as follows…

Total Test - 10 (8.3 - 29)
SHBG - 13 (11 - 71)
Free Test - 295 (255 - 725)

They have been slightly lower in past tests whilst drinking alot of alcohol and eating shit food

THYROID
TSH - 2.1 (0.5 - 4.0)

CHOLESTEROL
Total - 4.2 (3.0 - 5.2)
Triglycerides - 1.2 (0.5 - 1.7)
HDL - 1.1 (1.0 - 2.0)
LDL - 2.5 (1.5 - 3.4)
NON HDL - 3.1 (<3.4)
Cholesterol/HDL-C Ratio - 3.8 (<5.0)

These were results were 3 months ago. And I dare say things could have improved further since then. I really should get one more baseline blood test before I start anything.
I’m this test liver enzymes we’re still a little high from excessive alcohol consumption and poor nutrition choices. I can’t find ESTROGEN results but from memory the main one the doc was explaining was 1 unit. ABOVE the normal range for men.

I really will try get a full blood done again before I embark on anything. Including IGF levels, cortisol, full depth look at Estrogen, Testosterone, Pro Lactin, prostate, ferretin

I know in the past I’ve had really high ferretin results but never looked into it. I know I would need an updated evaluation to really justify any old ferretin results.

So in the end. I will talk with my doc again. But he won’t do TRT unless my total test levels dropped below 8. 9. They have been 9 something in the past. But in his mind, he says everything is in normal range. That may be the case in the protocols he follows. BUT

I guarantee if I never abused steroids incorrectly and followed up with a PCT or tool some AI’s whilst jabbing 10 years ago. That my natural test levels would be alot higher then they are and everything would be in normal preportion and I’d feel OK.

Don’t get me wrong I am happy and feel good but. I’m always just not right. Still fatigued. Depressed and lazy for no reason, not myself. And I guarantee it has to do with my hormones. Whether it be, test, est, thyroid or all of them need balancing.

So if my doctor will not help because I’m not on the wrong end of the scale quite enough. I will do myself. I’ve never taken anti depressants or anything like that and I do not need them. That is not the issue. (Just trying to give more insight on myself) before I hear people’s opinions, help and advice :grin::+1:. I’m from Australia. And if there’s anything else people want to know. Just ask. It has been a task trying to write this on a phone and remember everything lol

So just to recap. Should I do a 10 year late
PCT of HCG and nolva. Maybe a bit of proviron before I decide to start using 125mg a week of test e and small amounts of armidex n maybe HCG intermittently with trial and Bloodwork to get it right. Keeping in mind, if anyone knows more then me. Whilst using DIM the past 2 weeks. (I’ve stopped now as I want to get a fresh baseline blood test in a couple of days before Injecting anything.) So keeping In mind the DIM the past 2 weeks was amazing for the 1st week. But just OK 2nd week and now that I’ve stopped my testes really seem to be shrunken and shrivelled at times and can be a slightly bit painful when really shrivelled, trying to hide. But remember 10 mins later, they could be at there fullest, feeling normal.

Thanks for reading. Let’s see what we can conjure


#2

I know this is a really long post. With alot of information. But if anyone informative people put there could take the time to read it all and advise would be great. Really want to know if I should try and re start my natural test production before I start injecting myself with unnatural test again. I know TRT is a life long commitment and as of now I understand I’m not doing it through the doctor. By the way I have booked a fresh blood test for Monday 17/09/18. At the end of the day. Something has to be done because I cannot continue living a life where I feel shit for no reason and like my brain is covered in fog. Thanks again.


#3

Is it possible to get complete labs? LH, FSH, fT3, fT4, rT3, prolactin, IGH-1, CBC, CMP, VitD, DHEA-S?


#4

Just to add further. I will also get a thermometer to do body temp checks for thyroid abnormality over this next week. I love summer. Hate winter. Sweat alot and I think I struggle to regulate heat. Even though I love summer. (IF ANY OF THIS MATTERS, I DO NOT KNOW) Cheers.


#5

Yeah im booked in on Monday. So I will ask for all of these to be tested :+1:


#6

Since I haven’t had many responses. I will try to clarify my situation in a much shorter post without a mini life story…

10 years later after steroid use in my late teens. Without ever taking an AI or Serm or any hcg or anything to look after myself in any way whilst using steroids.

I’ve come to the point where I must do something about my low t symptons. I will have full bloods in the coming days but 3 month old bloods are in the long as first post.

I know after seeing full bloods for LH, TSH, T3 T4 ETC will we have a better understanding. But. My main thing is. SHOULD I TRY SOME HCG AND MAYBE NOLVA IF NEEDED to try bring my testes back a bit before I decide to start my own TRT. Or would it be pointless and counter productive.

I know myself really well and I’m certain once I start self TRT I will be feeling much better. Because in a few days that is what I’m most likely going to do. As I can’t take it anymore.

My thinking is my LH n TSH will be OK. My body is doing what it should be after all these years but I’m stuck with really low T. Lower then my body should have naturally if I never used steroids incorrectly in the first place. So I’m return I feel like shit. Always dull. Foggy mind,. Low energy, libido on n off plus many other things probably mentioned in first post.

There are alot of points in my main post regarding my thinking here. So please feel free to spend 10 minutes reading.

Pretty much after bloods I will know more but I’m going to definitely start my own TRT. Should I try HCG first for 2 weeks before I start injecting artificial test again. Will it help with recovery in future if I decide to do TRT and every 6 months or so whilst maybe intermittently using hcg aswell, stop trt for 3 weeks, use hcg (heavier dose), then start trt again?

I have lots of ideas, thinking of how to approach this. Any input greatly appreciated.


#7

I think most of your concerns could be answered by further understanding how test production in the body works. I don’t think your getting a lot of responses because, frankly, to give you a full understanding someone would have to basically type out the highlights of every q and a on this forum! Lol.

I am very new on my journey of learning in the TRT world so I am not an authority, but if I’m reading between the lines of your questions correctly, you seem to be exactly where I was just a very short time ago in your understanding of TRT. You are going to “start your own TRT” blindly, and you are approaching it with the idea of trying to “jumpstart” your own production (hence the underlying idea of your question of pct 10 yrs later). If you have been off of steroids for 10 years, your body is producing whatever it’s going to produce. That’s not going to get any better. PCT only works immediately (meaning after a couple weeks) following a full steroid cycle, and it’s never a guarantee btw, to help restore natural production to whatever it was BEFORE the cycle started. If your natural production is in the tank, it’s done.

You present an idea of starting and stopping TRT which implies that you are trying to “trick” your body into producing more. This was my approach at first as well, but, unfortunately it won’t work that way. If you want to do something about your low T situation, you need to prepare yourself for the reality that you will need to get your levels documented BEFORE you start TRT, and then devise a good stable plan of TRT that you will be comfortable doing for the rest of your natural life, or at least until you feel that your days of needing testosterone to fully feel like a man are over (which would be the rest of your natural life for most).

Some closing advice. This may sound direct so I ask that you please forgive me if this sounds harsh…STOP watching your thread for responses and START reading every thread in this forum and learning from the all of the thousands of great answers and discussions that have already been given here. The answers are here I promise. They won’t be in the form of direct q and a that applies specifically to you mind you, but reading will expand your understanding as a whole. A little here. A little there. When that happens then the answers to your concerns just start becoming clear all on their own.

Good luck with it brother. People will be eager to help you out once you have advanced your own understanding.

Last note to add…this self education is going to be critical when it comes to laying out an effecting TRT plan. It’s going to be up to you to know more than your dr, and to be able to intelligently plead your case to him/her as to why you think your dosage should be “x” and your frequency should be “y”. If you skip this crucial step, you are going to be at the mercy of what I am beginning to call the “educated idiots rickety roller coaster therapy”!!!


#8

Not to worry Man Sa22c, haven’t you already heard there has been Bodybuilders that has taken SHIT TONS of steroids* and recovered using HCG in high dose short cycle. and still got their Girlfriends/Wives pregnant after lots of Anabolic abuse. maybe there isn’t a big Majority but quite a few Men have. @sa22c


#9

We need additional labs when you get them as already mentioned. Post them when you get them.

At 29, if you’re shut down, you’ll have a few options. A pct restart, which may or may not be successful. If it’s successful, great, story closed.

If not successful, you’ll need to find a trt doc willing to treat your hormonal deficiencies long term.

If your labs come back that you’re not shutdown, you’re definitely on the low end on your total t and free T. You can attempt to find another cause (chronic stress, inflammation, TBI, thyroid issues etc). Option B would then be finding a good trt doc. Be warned finding a good trt doc is often difficult. Even when one is found, there may be a period of adjustment or it may take you time to determine if your current Dr is indeed competent or not.

Again, post completed labs when you get them. Good luck.


#10

Hi Hostile @Hostile , good to meet u Brother, are you on TRT too just wondered, and using Test Cyp or Test E. Daniel here from the U.K


#11

Hcg may work short term to give a temporal burst or increase in testicular function but will not restart our hpta axis if completely shut down. Long term hcg use can also eventually shut down our hpta axis as well, to be warned.


#12

So you need to add in Clomid then with HCG to send the signal to the Brain properly from Clomid? Also has Nolvadex ever been used in a restart program Bro? is that true restarting using Clomid too start up the Brain pathway? @Hostile


#13

I’ve been on TRT for about 5 years with a variety of protocols. T cyp only. T with an AI. T with an AI and hcg. T with ai and SERM. T with only a SERM. Once per week injections, every 3.5 days, every other day, etc. Still learning myself, mostly through comparing anecdotes, my own personal experience and cross referencing with lab work.


#14

Also one more question Final question before i go & leave you too your Day Brother, is that on these whole 5 years, did you Finally manage to get your Hemoglobin & Hematocrit Blood Thickness Stablized completely Out without needing any Further Blood donations @ Red Cross. i have read of Men on ExcelMale Nelson vergels forum who been 2 years now constantly 2 injections per week. No need to Give Blood which is Great overall. @Hostile


#15

Best would potentially be hcg if secondary to get testicular atrophy reversed. After testicles physical function is hopefully partially restored, a SERM, nova or Clomid could be used after discontinuing the hcg. You typically don’t want to use hcg and a serm simultaneously for long periods of time. Then after 6 weeks on the serm, you get blood work done to see if your hpta axis can stand alone without the serm. If LH, fsh, total t and free T aren’t in optimal range you can try the pct again which likely won’t work or you can commit to trt long term. If those markers are in optimal range and you feel good, end of story. If the markers are in optimal range and you still don’t feel good, something else is going on and you have to try a different direction


#16

Yes, by not allowing my total t and free T levels outside of high range for too long, staying hydrated, avoiding iron and iron fortified foods and high dose fish oil.

More frequent injections can keep blood serum levels from spiking quite as much due to lower doses more frequently.


#17

Thanks alot @bmbrady77 , @dannybrouk and @Hostile. Was great to see some responses this morning. In regards to bmbrady77. I have done alot of reading and researching, regarding HPTA functionality, TRT and everything else. I have a basic understanding you could say I guess.

I’ve had fresh bloods taken this morning. Will have some results in 2-3 days. Others may take a week. So I guess in a week we will be able to track more directly.

I don’t think confused about TRT, HPTA restart or PCT and how they work . I’m just in 2 minds as to atm. Whether to try and bring my testicles back further from atrophy experienced 10 years ago…
Beore I decide to start my own TRT.

In regards too stopping and starting. It’s not to try and continue to jump-start natural test production. It’s just from my research. If I was to start TRT, I would stop every so often and just run HCG for a few weeks to try and stimulate teste functionality before injecting unnatural test again. I think that would be a good way to keep volume in testicals. Another way would be to start using HCG E3D whilst on TRT if I start experiencing further atrophy from shutdown.

There may be points I’ve missed. Sorry if I have. But it’s hard too reply on phone and remember all your valid points on such a small screen. Also you can be as harsh and cut throat as you want in your replies. I’m thick skinned. It’s no problem.

I’m regards too my doctor this morning. He’s a good guy but he would want to refer me to an endocrinologist if I was wanting to go down the root of TRT as I’m 29 etc etc. He wants to review my bloods in a week of course and go from there.

I have no problem obtaining everything involved for TRT, possible HPTA restarts, PCT etc. Outside of a doctor. I’m obviously keen to see my lab results and go from there to also see an endocrinologist I guess. But too be honest. I’ve already got things arriving this week and am keen to see what I can do in regards to adjusting my hormones to a better life forfilling balance. I could write alot more but I’ll leave it at that for now. :+1:

Reply to @Hostile. Thanks for the reply. Your are more onto my way of thinking and understanding my situation I feel. You’ve pretty much just reiterated to me what my options are. So I’m glad I’m on the right way of thinking. I will post bloods in a week. Thanks alot once again. Greatly appreciated.


#18

This information is what I was after greatly appreciated. Thank you Hostile. Will post bloods in a week.


#19

Thanks alot for taking the time to reply to all my questions. I will definitely keep you updated and post bloods in a week. You seem to have the same understanding of my thinking. Glad things are working for you and I know its constant analysis to keep yourself at a right level that is optimal for you personally. Post in a week. Cheers.


#20

Just to add whilst I think of it. Apart from trying to restore some teste size. If my bloods come back for regular TSH, T3, T4, and LH. Then that means I’m stuck with low T from previous abuse? Correct me if wrong.

So if that were the case TRT would be my only option.?
Now if they come back all out of whack, I’d be right in thinking it’s best to try correct thyroid functionality first and see what benefits I feel before inaking TRT. Is this correct in thinking this way?

I think it’s not right but I’m honest and I will say I’m nearly enclined if it was all messed up to just start dosing some hcg at first (see if it reverses any teste atrophy)… Followed by test e regularly. Taking thyroid medication and seeing how I go over the next 2 months and getting things dialled in. AI, DIM, SERMS would be there if needed. But I know I’d be good for a while without them. THIS IS WHY I’M HERE. I can’t stand feeling this way any longer… I’ll post bloods in a week. Feel free to say anything to me in the mean time. :grin: