T Nation

TRT, HCG, and DHT

Hi all I’m only 7 weeks into TRT with Defy. All good so far. First follow up in about 2 weeks with labs. Question for the group - I opted to keep things simple and start with just T Cyp @ 80mg twice per week (I have high SHBG). Again, things are going well and couldn’t care less about testicular atrophy (cosmetically) and we already have 3 kids. However, I’ve been reading a lot about how “mandatory” HCG is for LH receptors, etc. I plan to talk to defy about this, but did want to understand if T only without HCG will have a negative impact (lower) my DHT levels. Prior to Clomid monotherapy about 9 years ago, my DHT was below normal with TT around 470. I’m assuming that as long as my TT is high or high-normal, DHT will follow, but wanted to make sure I’m not making the wrong assumption as I’m brand new to TRT and don’t plan on adding HCG at the moment.

Thanks!

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Testosterone converts to estrogen and dihydrotestosterone (DHT), so having low T it’s no surprise DHT was low. Adding HCG can complicate your TRT protocol and make you feel less benefit, few men feel good on HCG.

There are some men who will get a decrease in magnesium and pregnenolone do to LH deprivation, some won’t notice the lower pregnenolone and some will, but that’s an easy fix by supplementing it.

You tackle each problem when, if it occurs.

Great. Don’t want to make this any more complicated than needed. Loving the simple T only approach (plus my normal supps). So it sounds like even T only, as long as my TT and Free T ranges are optimal, DHT won’t suffer, right?

Just don’t want to create some long term harm a la propecia use and DHT shutdown. Long shot, I know, just scares the shit out of me as I hadn’t a multi-year battle coming off SSRIs 10 years ago.

Only two reasons for adding hCG, fertility and/or prevention of testicular atrophy.

That is how I understand it works. I would only take HCG if your balls start giving you a dull ache or sharp stabing pains. I had both after 7 months of T mono. In 5 weeks of 800iu all my pain was gone. I’m cut so babies arent a thing for me and my wife could care less about atrophy. But pain all day thats another issue.

It would help if you posted labs. “High” SHBG, etc, is extremely vague. Is it high normal 50-55 or high high 70-90?

Defy didn’t put you on an AI?

I think the fact that men such as Dr. John and Dr. Saya advocate for HCG means they think it has some utility as part of a TRT regimen, including the fact it helps raise T levels, correct?

Also, what I’ve personally noticed, is that without HCG, I lack seminal fluid volume (and pleasure during orgasm). That may or may not matter to you. Form what I understand DHT also plays a role in seminal fluid volume.

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we are abbout on the same timeline. also defy. i started out on both test and hcg and my only advice would be to research the hcg and if you go that route start low and work up. i didnt have the best reaction to 1000 a week but everyone reacts differently

What kind of reaction did you have?

Thanks. Don’t plan on it unless Defy gives me a great reason why and if I do - I will start low, thanks.

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If you want to optimize all hormones you need pregnalone, vitamin d, dhea, DHT, thyroid hormone, and I’m sure I’m missing something. Add some ssupplements like b6 magnesium and etc. there is so much you can add to your protocol but the only two that will make you feel good are the thyroid and testosterone (per Dr.Nochols: he says it in jsut about every video so I always pass it along).

You can supplement those hormones without HCG. If you want more DHT just ask for some scrotul cream and apply a small dose daily . Like 25mg that’ll give you nice labido.

I’m all in with optimizing all hormones. There is a reason we have all. So yes I agree we shouldn’t take one and neglect the rest.

i was told to use 1000 IU a week and 150 test a week. I started using the hgc and 120 test but i dropped the hcg after being crazy moody/depressed/had random horrible body odor/and a HUGE hair shed… all in first 14 days. I was told it was the HCG. But i cant prove that. I am not knocking HCG but i do think we all react differently … also my levels were crazy crazy low. In hindsight i would have tried to find some kind of tapering protocol where i start really low and build up

Defy has this scrotal cream? Dht improves libido? Does dht improve anything else? Does it improve erections?

Yes if is very important . Google it and you will find more benefits.

I posted to Charlie recently a bunch of videos about this. Look through my history.

Go to YouTube and find the lifting dermatologist and find all
The videos on DHT.

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By Defy? They told you this or was it some nobody random off this website?
When you bring your TT back up you will start stinking like you did when you were 20 years old.
Why you lost your hair who knows. Probably a spike in DHT because HCG has nothing to do with hair loss. Hell guys/girls take 10,000iu of HCG on the HCG diet and none of them complain of hair loss.
Be really cautous finkle, there is a lot of BS and broscience on these websites and the mods do nothing about it. Its the old reader be ware.

I’m on T only and I need to shower twice a day like I did 20 years ago. I just smell like BO by then end of day, no matter what. Sweaty and stinky like a gross teenager. But I also love how I feel physically…

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@hrdlvn

Objectively i cannot blame HCG with 100% certainty purely based on the fact i started Test + HCG as my protocol … that said i did speak with two medical professionals who I know. One is a plastic surgeon and he does some hair transplants in his practice and the other is a former body builder who is also an endo. Both have insight to the compounds beyound “what the texts books teach” in med school … and both suggested i pull the HCG since it elevates other hormones within the body

I wasnt just repeating something for the sake of repeating it. Also - being new to all this i take everything with a grain of salt (including what they both said) simply because i have seen so many guys rave about how HCG makes them feel better / sharper. Maybe for me it didnt sit right with my individual makeup?

I do know that when i tapered off the the HCG the shed slowed almost to a halt. But again - could that have just been the end of the shed possibly caused by the test? I dont know

I wish i had started a test only protocol and added HCG a few months in down the road to eliminate variables

Always appreciate your insights @hrdlvn

Always glad to help. I am no expert but i have always had a lot of your basic common sense and only repeat things I have tried on myself. You will endup running your own experiments we all react so different to drugs like HCG. If your balls aren’t aching I would not take it. I take it because I get a dull ball ache in a matter of days without.

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its been 5 months now and not a whole lot of shrinkage … and no ache.

I’d say you are good without. Just know it is there if you every have a need. Not needing HCG should help you get your E2 down to something that could trigger your libido.

I’ve never used the AI you are taking so I googled it. Notice one of the side effects?

Common side effects of Aromasin include
hot flashes,
headache,
hair loss,
joint/bone/muscle pain,
tiredness,
anxiety,
unusual or increased sweating,
nausea
Can you get your hands on any anastrozole? I’ve been taking anastrozole for over 5 years and although I am prone to male pattern baldness I have lost no hair infact I think it is thicker.