T Nation

TRT for 19 Year Old

Hi, im interested in getting TRT because last few times ive had it tested it was in the lowest normal range both times were testing in the morning where i should be having the highest T levels of the day. I have also been diagnosed with Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis where anti-bodies are attacking the thyroid mistakely. So for my hypothyroidism im also taking 100mg of Thyroxine (T4) daily for life. The T4 hasn’t help much in improving my T levels but i feel a lot better than before.

Im about 6"2, 106kgs guessing about 18-20% BF, This is my second year of bodybuilding training, training all the bodyparts once a week 3 to 4 times a week (12 sets for larger bodyparts, 8 sets for smaller bodyparts)

Cardio: I do post-workout 20-30min low-mod intensity. If i have enough energy i try to do HIIT cardio twice a week on off days.

Calories are about 2200-2400 a day for cutting. My maintainence is 3000.
Eating 6 meals a day. Most are fish & rice, chicken & oatmeal, tuna & sweet potatoes, egg whites & oatmeal. I eat a lot of vegetables and a little bit of fruit and skim milk.

Supplementing with: Concentrated fish oils 5 capsules a day (2500mg DHA, 500mg EPA), Glutamine 15g a day, Vitamin C 2g a day, ZMA, Protein, Vitargo (Post-workout).

My latest blood tests:

Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) - 7.72 High 1-5 being normal
Free Thyroxine (T4) - 15.0
Triiodothyroxine Free (T3) - 5.2
Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) - 5.4 *
Luteinising Hormone (LH) - 1.9 *
Prolactin = 105
Testosterone - 11.5 normal being 8 - 26 nmol/L
DHEAS - 4.5 *
Growth Hormone - 5.4
IGF-1 - 41.5

Immunology

Thyroglobulin Antibodies - 48 *
Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies - 2069 Very High

(all i see is an asterix next to a few of these results don’t know what they mean the endo said its all normal lol yeah right, and he didn’t give me any info on what the normal ranges of the other hormones are or in what units they are measured in… hopefully some of you guys have a clue if anything is low etc)

My symptoms are as follows though a few of these things have improved a bit from the T4 but not much:

�?� Hair growth is scarse, facial hair grows only on the lower part of the jaw,very little hair growth.
�?� No sex drive.
�?� Sleeping long hours unable to wake up till I�??ve slept at least 10 hours waking up earlier leaves me fatigued and exhausted throughout the rest of the day
�?� Fatigue
�?� Sometimes feeling exhausted
�?� Joint paint in the knuckles and sometimes in the knees
�?� Gain weight easily despite consistent diet, weight training and cardio, can�??t lose bodyfat.
�?� Hair is brittle and falls out easily
�?� Waking up in the middle of the night frequently
�?� Can get extremely bad water retention in the abdominal, lower back and inner thigh area.

The biggest issue i’m having is in trying to lose bodyfat its extremely difficult almost impossible, i shouldn’t be having this much trouble losing weight/getting lean at my age.

If the doctor doesn’t help me i’m going to do a Test/Tren cycle for 10 weeks. 500mg of Test E for 10 weeks and 200mg of Tren E for 8 weeks as well as Armidex with Clomid and Nolva PCT.

Any help would be great, I’m hoping to get my life back on track as this condition has screwed me up.

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Acquiring the tablets isn’t a problem. He gave me a few repeats of 5 bottles each containing 40 tablets of 100mg of Thyroxine. He said for me to come back in 6-8 weeks to re- evalulate how the TSH has dropped etc.

Basically i have been overweight all my life. Since i was a child. About 3-4 years ago i was at my highest ever weight of about 126kgs with a very high bodyfat. Once i got into bodybuilding i was finally able to control this to some extent.

The lethargy and weight gain have been happening all my life. So far i’ve only been on the thyroid for about a month as i was recently diagnosed with the condition. I am feeling a lot better though.

My endo said my Test levels would improve with the thyroxine treatment so we’ll see what the blood work says in a couple of weeks. I’m going to discuss my cycle with my endo and see what his opinion is on the matter.

Thanks for the input my friend, Hashimoto’s is a terrible disease very debilitating, i spent the whole of last year trying to find out what’s wrong with me.

Today i did a glucose tolerance test. Drinking a dextrose solution with 75g of carbs then drawing blood 1 hour after then an hour after that. This is to rule out insulin resistance and possible developing diabetes which in all honesty i could have.

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Why wouldn’t the t-4 stop tsh from being produced? I thought that when you added t-3 or t-4 you shut down your own production or attemped production in this case. Is the negative feedback loop initiated from the thyroid itself or circulating hormones?

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Actually the glucose tolerance test was recommended by a hepatologist (liver specialist) i went to see because my AST and ALT levels were highly elevated in my last blood test. The endo i’m seeing is sitting on his ass from what i can see.

When doing the test today an hour after drinking the dextrose solution i started feeling dizzy. Sitting in the waiting room i didn’t feel too well then it suddenly went away. I’m thinking this is hypoglycaemia and possible diabetes but i can only assume, ill see what’s really happening when the blood work comes back.

In regards to starting a cycle i’m definitely serious about it and i will be commencing a cycle in a week or two. I forgot to mention i’m also anemic my iron is always very low… i do eat red meat etc. but that doesn’t seem to help. I take a 325mg Ferrous Sulfate tablet daily and that really helps now with the T4 the energy is coming back to me.

In regards to cycle experience the only things ive ran before are Clenbuterol, Albuterol and T3,

In regards to the cycle here it is:

Test Enan - 500mg for 10 Weeks
Tren Enan - 200mg for 8 Weeks

Injections: Monday - 250mg of Test/ 100mg of Tren
Thursday - 250mg of Test/ 100mg of Tren

PCT: 2 weeks after last shot.

Week 12: 150mg Clomid ED/ 40mg Nolva ED
Week 13: 100mg Clomid ED/ 30mg Nolva ED
Week 14: 50mg Clomid ED/ 20mg Nolva ED
Week 15: 10mg Nolva (Till I feel back to normal.)

Im also going to have about 50mg of Armidex on hand… how could i use that? Is it really even necessary unless i start seeing signs of gyno?

Im going to use maybe 0.25 to 0.5mg to keep the bloat down.

After this cycle 6 weeks or so i’m going to Run DNP and Winstrol or Anavar to prevent muscle loss and hopefully get to single digit bodyfat.

DNP for 4 days at 200mg… assessing tolerance if everything is good then
DNP for another 6 days at 400mg

For this 10 day cycle would running Oral Winstrol at 50mg ED be too much or would 50mg EOD be enough to prevent any muscle loss?

Thanks.

I just looked at your diet and training-- you’re nowhere near ready to run a cycle. Especially not the one you have planned. You’re 19 and going to run a cycle. I did it when I was 19 and turned out alright, but to be perfectly honest, you’re just playing with fire.

I’m going to go ahead and assume this if your first cycle. So don’t fuck with the tren. I love the shit and it’s one of my favorite compounds, second to test, but you’re not ready for any steroids, much less tren. As of right now, you don’t know if TRT is going to be necessary. Do a cycle now and you could potentially be on TRT the rest of your life-- I don’t think you want that. Digressing… sorry.

Test. That’s all you need. Keep your dose of 500mg/wk and split it into two injections. Run that for 12 weeks and you shouldn’t be disappointed, ASSUMING YOU KNOW WHAT YOU’RE DOING WITH DIET AND TRAINING!!!

Your diet is my main concern here. That’s not a lot of calories, yes it will be easy to gain mass eating 3k a day on AAS, but it will be more of a waste than anything. As you read and understand the world of AAS more and more, you’ll realize it’s pretty much an all or nothing scenario. If you’re going to do this, you’re going to be protein almost nonstop and more than likely the same with carbs.

While on cycle your Adex dosage seems rather heavy. I tell everyone this-- don’t use it unless necessary because of the side effects, namely it is quite hepatoxic. And then when you do start using it, use a very mild dose of .25mg E3D or E4D and it should get the job done. Never ever go above .75mg per day though unless absolutely necessary like it is for ToneBone.

Also, your PCT concerns me. I used to be a clomid guy. I’m going to go ahead and assume you’ve never tried it because otherwise you probably wouldn’t use it again. Serious emotional and mood issues here bud. Watch yourself. There were moments where I was ready to tear down a building and the next second I just wanted to cry. It does its job effectively, but there are some crazy sides to it. And lastly, your PCT will require you to take 12-16 weeks off altogether before you can start a new cycle once you have finished week 15. Not sure what you think of that. Your better option would be a taper. If you’re interested about that, I will (or pretty much anyone else here) be happy to explain the benefits of that.

So my advice:

  • you’re 19, think long and hard about this

ASSUMING YOU DO IT, READ THIS:
-use test only, save the tren
-run the test at 400-600mg/wk
-keep Adex ready to go just in case
-figure out what the hell you are doing diet and training wise, your bf% is pretty damn high
-ditch the clomid
-keep the nolva for gyno or other sides during recovery
-do NOT use a conventional recovery, go with a taper
-don’t be so concerned about bloat and Adex, use it to prevent bad sides-- like gyno and other estrogen related effects

Hope I helped ya out just in case you do this, but I strongly recommend you hold off at this stage of the game. See what your doctor will further do for you before giving yourself some “hormone therapy.”

World

P.S. If you don’t think you have the self control to save the tren, give it to me and I’ll hold onto it for safe keeping… but I might give it back empty…

My diet has been spot on. With hypothyroidism, insulin resistance and low testosterone whatever i do diet and training wise isn’t going to do shit and i know this now.

I have been consistently training, dieting, supplementing day in and day out but with not that great of results and this is because of the hormonal situation i’m faced with.

Bodyfat wise 18-20 percent is just an estimate i’m probably lower.

On cycle i wont be eating 2400 calories that will change obviously. I terms of running Tren their is nothing wrong with running Tren first time especially at 200mg. From first hand experience from people running with test their first time they got great results. I know everyone on the boards says “don’t run tren first time it will mess u up” Thats bullshit. It may mess me up if i hit 400-500mg a day but i’m using a safe dosage here.

I have low test levels anyway so the gear lowering my test levels isn’t a concern BUT the tren being highly suppressive might make my recovery a lot harder so i’ll take your thoughts into consideration.

Training Split is: 12 sets for shoulders, chest, biceps and legs, 6-8 sets for biceps, triceps, calves.

60 sec rest between sets 8-10 rep range.

Monday: Shoulders, Calves and Traps
Wednesday: Chest & Bi’s
Thursday: Quads & Hams
Saturday: Back & Tri’s

I didn’t want to go into specifics with the diet but here it is if u dont think i know what im doing lol mind you this if for cutting!.

2400 Cals First 4 meals P+C meals last 2 meals P+F meals.
Eating about every 2.5-3 hours
240g of Protein
200-220g of Carbs
53g of Fat

Meal One:
60g of oats
11 egg whites
(pre-workout supplement)

Meal Two (Post-workout):
Protein Powder 2 scoops
Vitargo 2 scoops

Meal Three:
Tuna 170g
Brown Rice 120g
Vegetables

Meal Four:
110g chicken breast
60g oats

Meal Five:
185g lean grilled fish
1 Tbs flaxseed oil
Vegetables

Meal 6:
one scoop protein powder
100g cottage cheese
1 Tbs Flaxseed oil

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I’ll stick to Clomid. Not interested in the test taper, it’s going be tough jabbing for the 10-12 weeks living with my parents let alone any more time.

Ok ill use the Adex if needed at .25mg E3D or E4D. And no you can’t have my Tren :stuck_out_tongue:

I understand what your saying Bushido. I’m getting some Anavar and Winstrol and i might just run that then and keep this other stuff for another time i’m still deciding. I’ll still have to discuss treatment options with my doctor before i do anything.

Energy levels are awesome right now honestly i’m feeling pretty good. I know what you mean when you say how will everything pan out after PCT and i’ve been thinking about that man no doubt.

If i have Diabetes/Insulin Resistance i won’t know till i get the results back. The endo said to me my test levels would improve with the Thyroxine treatment i’m currently on 100mg for 6 weeks or so before he does a blood test again to measure TSH levels to see if the dosage needs to be adjusted. He says everything else is normal FSH, LH, IGF etc. I’ll probably end up with a 200mg full replacement dose.

Even with all these troubles i’ve managed to add mass to my frame and get a good foundation. Im pretty strong as well and am able to train over an hour with maximal intensity. I think i have awesome genetics honestly. The only thing thats setting me back from my maximal potential are my health problems. Though i’m feeling a lot better already and able to do a lot more throughout the day so im happy.

Im Serbian we all have big tall thick frames :slight_smile:

Thanks for the explanation Bushy, I knew most I think, I just didn’t know why the exo wasn’t lowing tsh, but it’s like the newly diagnosed eunuch in your example. It will take a little while for trt to shut down LHRH, LH, FSH, etc. Sorry for the hijack. To the OP, I agree, get your base health down first. You are 19 so you have plenty of time to cycle. Good luck and keep updating and asking questions.

How can an oral only cycle have no lasting effects on test production?

If this is true then ill definitely try the oral only route. I just opted for the injectables because i didn’t think this cycle would do anything really but suppress my hormone levels, but it was my first thought to try an oral only cycle.

Var for 4 weeks at 50mg ED and
Winstrol for 2 weeks at 50mg ED

Would that work?

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I never said you should run a cycle, I just give you guidelines for a simple, basic, safe, beginner cycle. And you still didn’t even take that advice… no surprises there… I’m having flashbacks of jake’s early days…

DON’T RUN A CYCLE!!!

NOTHING GOOD CAN COME WITH IT RIGHT NOW WITH YOUR HEALTH ISSUES/PROBLEMS!!!

DON’T DO IT!!!

World

Well it looks like i’m going to be on TRT for my low T and maybe HGH to correct my shockingly low IGF-1 levels. I also have low cortisol (weak adrenals) and will probably need cortisol to correct this. No wonder i haven’t been able to achieve the physique i want or even decent energy levels for that matter.

Bodyfat has been the biggest issue even with dieting and cardio my body has basically stopped responding all to do with my hormone levels, and muscle gain is very difficult (muscle loss is actually occuring)

Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) - 7.32 (0.40-4.00) **
Free Thyroxine (T4) - 12.0 (8-22)
Triiodothyroxine Free (T3) - 2.7 (2.5-6.0) **
Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) - <0.5 (1.5-13.0) ***
Luteinising Hormone (LH - <0.5 (2.0-10.00) ***
Testosterone - 10.2 (12-32) nmol/L ***
DHEAS - 4.5 (7.5-14.5) ***
Growth Hormone - 5.2
IGF-1 - 39.5 (120-400) ***

Iron - 12 (14-33) umol/L ***
Transfer S. 17 - ( 25-55) % ***
Ferritin - 28 - ( 22-322) ug/L **

AST: 78 (15-41 U/L) ***
ALT: 82 (17-63 U/L) ***

Possible treatment options could be:
(i’m already on armour thyroid for hypothyroidism)

HCG (to stimulate natural test production) + Armidex (control E2) + hydrocortisone (for low cortisol/adrenal fatigue) & DHEA (Also for adrenal recovery)

or

TRT (as replacement) + Armidex (control E2) + hydrocortisone (for low cortisol/adrenal fatigue) & DHEA (Also for adrenal recovery)

and possibly HGH as i said for increasing IGF-1 levels.

Just wanted to know what would be a optimal dose that i can push for in terms of T replacement, i was thinking the best i can hope for is 200mg a week but is that realistic?

Also what’s a standard dose of HGH endos might put someone on?

Thanks.

I absolutely agree… you should not - cannot - run any type of cyle right now. You got enough going on in your body…Even if you were 100% healthy, we would recommend you wait 5 years!

Wait. Please wait. Let your body achieve some sort of stasis first, or you will have issues you whole life. WHOLE LIFE.

OK?

Joe