T Nation

TRT Didn't Work For Me

First I want to make clear that I am not trying to discourage anyone. Just the opposite. I think TRT works for a lot of men and if we can all learn something from my mistakes then we all benefit. So Im going to post a VERY brief summary.

I started with a compounded 10% cream 1g/day in early DEC. Also 250 IU HCG 2x week. My Test before starting was 182. I had some little benes: better orgasm, waking earlier in the morning ready to go. I interupted TRT just before Christmas and resumed middle January. I varied between 1g - 2g per day, I kept HCG at 250 iu 2x week.

By the end of January I was absolutely lazy, stupid and unhappy. I could not do math in my head. I could not type. I quit working out. I worked very little and daydreamed all the time. I almosr quit I was so miserable. KSMan sent me many PMs and encouraged me to hang. I decided to switch to the injectable and added anastrozole 1mg/week the middle of Feb. Also began 1 IU/day HGH at the same time. Near the end of February I am back in the toilet though i never quite climbed all the way out. I increased the dosage of Test Cyp for awhile to 28mg EOD from 14. I do this for a week or so and then back down. I also tried increasing dosage of the AI since I was/am convinced that Estradiol was/is causing my problems. I continue to be lazy, stupid and unhappy through march, and now suffering weak wood as well, until i noticed testicular atrophy despite the HCG. Well that was pretty much the last straw and the last week in March I quit TRT. I continued the AI and a different batch of HCG for a week or so, and then stopped that as well.

I do not have the soft testicles nor the shrunken scrotum- but I am still a lazy, unhappy dumbass who cant do arithmatic in his head. But I think I am getting a little closer to normal.

Now this has been real brief but the point is to try and id mistakes. I will offer 2 for your consideration and invite others to contribute for the benefit of us all:

  1. I had only BW on Tot Test and IGF-1 before I began. Therefore when things started to go wrong I could not have done another panel to help me ID where the problem was. I suspect Estradiol but since I didnt test it I dont know.

  2. I kept my HCG too long and should have been more careful of it shelf life.

I contnued with HGH and I am taking Alpha Male and Super Miraforte in an effort to improve my T/E ratio naturally. I am thinking of doing the LEF blood panel at the end of March or early april to see where Im at with the HGH and the herbs. May just hang with that or may try TRT again.

Again I aint trying to discourage anyone, just the opposite. Lets share knowledge and experience and get smarter.

When you’re experimenting, there can be a problem when you change more than one variable at a time. If we run the numbers, you’ll see what I mean.

A common figure for transdermal absorbtion is 30% so your 1 gram of 10% ED was probably delivering .03mg times 7 days in a week for a total dose of 210 mg a week testosterone.

So then you switch to injectable but at 14mg EOD you’re only getting 50mg a week. Then you double it but you’re still at about half of what you were getting with the gel. Adding the anastrozole was a good idea, but you can’t tell if it is helping or not unless you keep the testosterone the same, eh?

The problems you had with injectable could have simply been because of the low dosing. Some guys on TRT go as high as 250mg a week. When you’re trying to sort something out, it is best to make one change at a time and then see where you’re at. There could also be benefits to changing your anti-estrogen regimen from anastrozole to tamoxifen and exemestane. Check out the following article for information on this:

I can certainly understand your frustration and I wish you nothing but the best, but I don’t understand why you think that less testosterone is the way to go.

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Good friggin points gents. Later I’ll get a little time and respond.

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
When you’re experimenting, there can be a problem when you change more than one variable at a time. If we run the numbers, you’ll see what I mean.

A common figure for transdermal absorbtion is 30% so your 1 gram of 10% ED was probably delivering .03mg times 7 days in a week for a total dose of 210 mg a week testosterone[/quote]

I thought the accepted figure was 10% under ideal cirumstances, so I was figuring 70 mg/week max with the TD.

Ahem! Well here we have a perfect example of the dumbassery brought about by TRT. I gave the wrong figure, actually I was doing 28 mg EOD= 98 mg/week. So I thought I was increasing dosage from 70mg/wk to 98mg/wk.

I ran @50 mg EOD for a week or so. Even so, if you are right about the absorbtion of the TD even this was less than the 300 mg/week I was absorbing with the TD. That # sounds real high though.

[quote]Adding the anastrozole was a good idea, but you can’t tell if it is helping or not unless you keep the testosterone the same, eh?

The problems you had with injectable could have simply been because of the low dosing. Some guys on TRT go as high as 250mg a week. When you’re trying to sort something out, it is best to make one change at a time and then see where you’re at.[/quote]

Clearly I was impatient. I was feeling pretty low and wanted to find a solution, wasn’t in the mood to be catious.

[quote]There could also be benefits to changing your anti-estrogen regimen from anastrozole to tamoxifen and exemestane. Check out the following article for information on this:

I can certainly understand your frustration and I wish you nothing but the best, but I don’t understand why you think that less testosterone is the way to go.[/quote]

I 'll check out the link. I agree I will have less test, but I reasoned I would also lower Estradiol. Ultimately, the truth is that I felt better before I started than I do now, so returning to baseline is an improvement.

But if your numbers are correct then it may well be that it wasnt Estardiol at all that drug me down but rather insufficient TRT after shutting down endogenour production. I thought 100 mg/week was a pretty good shot of T.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Why did you vary your test between 1-2g / wk. If no one has told you, stability is key by which I mean that fluctuations in levels are what cause side effects, due to fluctuations in E and SHBG. A fluctiation of 100% on some weeks is NOT a good idea. Why did you do this? Not bashing, just curious…[/quote]

Impatience. I felt as though my benes were so negligible that my dosage must be too small. The board here id full of stories of men who got no results from the TD. So I increased dosage for a while. yeah, dumb. I know.

[quote] Well, by the end of January, your natural T which would have been supplimented by the gel, was now shut down completely, so you needed to increase the exogenous T or yes, you would experience a crash. …Big props to KS man for the support and encoragement BTW…

The addition of HGH was a good idea, but then you go and do everything else wrong again. You start injecting test CYPIONATE (the longest commercially available test ester), EOD. Why would you inject it EOD with all the hassle that entails when E4D or even E5D would have been fine. CYP takes around 4 weeks to kick in properly, did you know that? [/quote]

No i did’nt. In fact I thought that T cyp was the quickest acting ester, that it was significantly active within 24-48 hrs of injection and that it had a half life of 10-14 days.

[quote]

So for 4 weeks the levels would have been building slowly, but leaving you feeling shitty (unless you were running the gel at the same time). And why oh why did you run such a low dose, AND vary it from week to week. [/quote]

Fraid I am still stupid, I was incorrect on the dosage. Actually I was running 28 mg EOD. I doubled this dose near the end of January because I didnt feel like getting out of bed. I did this for about a week and then returned to 28mg EOD.[quote]

Also, you say you ran anastrozole at 1mg / wk. Please tell me you split the dose into EOD… Or did you take it all in one go? If you did, then again you will be getting fluctuations in E levels, leaving your libido all of a whoopsie, lol.[/quote]

I ended up increasing that as well. No matter the dosage i took it either 2x week per LEF protocol or EOD.[quote]

Actually, I can run 700mg test/wk and I don’t need an AI, so I think you might want to reconsider that.

How long did you store your reconstituted HCG for? It will keep for 3 months (in my opinion) as long as it is refrigerated. [/quote]

It worked for about 3 mos, so I think that 3 mos is as long as HCG will stay in the fridge.[quote]

I don’t think that E levels were your main issue. I think your main issue is (and I don’t mean to sound unkind here) that you are scared of test. You run tiny doses, backing of every other week for no good reason. [/quote]

I am beginning to think you and Happydog may have a point that mt TRT dosage was just too low. I thought it was ggod strategy to start at 100 mg/week and work up if necessary. However I did not work my way up becuse I thought that Estradiol was the problem and more Test might just mean more aromatization. Maybe y’all are right, the reason I got no love from the AI is because Estradiol wasnt the problem. The prob was I was starving for Test.

[quote]

You also OD on the AI, because you are even more scared of estrogen. I think that if you run 150-200mg test cyp per week, giving it 4 weeks to normalise, then WAIT and see if you have any E-related issues before jumping on the AI, you should be fine. Just my opinion though.[/quote]

Well Im gonna think alot about yer opinion and solicit others to comment as well.

I think I want to get a baseline BT first. All I am doing now is Super Miraforte and Alpha Male, though I continued the hGH. Maybe get a BT the end of the month.

I think that TRT can work for you. No point in dropping out, doing BW then getting back on TRT. You need a TRT baseline.

I think that 100mg/wk test cyp and 1mg/wk anastrozole should be used as the typical doses. Then settle down on that and do BW then and make changes from there.

There are other reasons to feel really shitty (doing taxes) and thyroid is one possibility. If I was jerking my self around with dosing, I think that I would feel crappy too.

Watch the HCG age after mixing it.

Whatever you do, you need to be a bit more consistent and methodical.

With TRT there will be many changes, including tissue changes and changes to thought processes. Some positive thinking could go a long way. You need to change some habits of thought.

Take a break if that is what you really need right now. But BW after starting TRT may save you a whole BW-response cycle.

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This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Plonker:) Yer kiddin me right? Where you from? Down Under?

Naw. No offense. When you put up a post inviting criticism of your decisions, guess what?

You’re going to get some:)

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Also, cyp is the slowest ester. You might be thinking of prop. So your 1 week ‘bumps’ wouldn’t have had much effect until 3-4 weeks down the line.[/quote]

He was injecting test cyp EOD, so there would not be any ‘bumps’.

Bumping – there are some real good posts here

Just because what you are doing now isn’t working does not mean that TRT isn’t going to work for you.

Some respond well to the first protocol they try and they are good to go.

Others don’t (I am one of those)

Keep plugging away – from what little I know it sounds like you t dosage needs to be increased.

From what little I have read here it sounds also like some guys do great on EOD, but others may not respond so well to that, and may do better on less frequent injections (once every 7 days, once every 5 days, twice a week, etc).

Hoping for the best for you.

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Also, cyp is the slowest ester. You might be thinking of prop. So your 1 week ‘bumps’ wouldn’t have had much effect until 3-4 weeks down the line.[/quote]

I did some looking last night and the info I found confirmed that cyp is a slow ester. The way it was put was that it would breakdown for a period of 3 weeks or so. Not very helpful in terms of onset of action.

I suspect that blood concentration studies have been done comparing the various esters over time, i.e. 24 hrs, 3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks. 3 weeks. That would be extremely useful info for us. Anybody?

[quote]KSman wrote:
I think that TRT can work for you. No point in dropping out, doing BW then getting back on TRT. You need a TRT baseline.

I think that 100mg/wk test cyp and 1mg/wk anastrozole should be used as the typical doses. Then settle down on that and do BW then and make changes from there.

There are other reasons to feel really shitty (doing taxes) and thyroid is one possibility. If I was jerking my self around with dosing, I think that I would feel crappy too.

Watch the HCG age after mixing it.

Whatever you do, you need to be a bit more consistent and methodical.

With TRT there will be many changes, including tissue changes and changes to thought processes. Some positive thinking could go a long way. You need to change some habits of thought.

Take a break if that is what you really need right now. But BW after starting TRT may save you a whole BW-response cycle.[/quote]

I take it then that you are unconvinced that the t dose was too low and are suspicious that my erratic protocol is responsible?

As to thyroid I know nothing of the symps. I was/am lethargic and havi(ing) a hard time taking off weight. In addition I am now stupid. Also the last 2 days I have dandruff. If I recall this is low E? Havent taken the AI in a week.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Which was why I put the word in ''s, lol. However he did think he was using the fastest acting test ester, so he was intending a ‘bump’, even if it didn’t work that way. [/quote]

Well I injected EOD to avoid roller coasting. But yes I thought t cyp acted quickly, not in terms of effects but in terms of blood concentration.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
KSman wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:

Which was why I put the word in ''s, lol. However he did think he was using the fastest acting test ester, so he was intending a ‘bump’, even if it didn’t work that way. [/quote]

Ok Im with you now. At the end of Feb when I was in the dump I increased dosage thinking that i would get a bump and get outta the dump.

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Which was why I put the word in ''s, lol. However he did think he was using the fastest acting test ester, so he was intending a ‘bump’, even if it didn’t work that way.

Well I injected EOD to avoid roller coasting. But yes I thought t cyp acted quickly, not in terms of effects but in terms of blood concentration.

[/quote]

The test esters are fast acting, while also providing a time release mechanism. Weekly injections will produce a spike in levels in 2-3 days. The EOD injections create an ovelap of a few active injection sites and produces very constant levels. Transdermals create daily spikes of testosterone.

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:

I take it then that you are unconvinced that the t dose was too low and are suspicious that my erratic protocol is responsible?

As to thyroid I know nothing of the symps. I was/am lethargic and havi(ing) a hard time taking off weight. In addition I am now stupid. Also the last 2 days I have dandruff. If I recall this is low E? Havent taken the AI in a week.

[/quote]
Thyroid problems can cause low energy and problems with weight. My TRT really accelerated my skin growth and dandruff, but that is what I was like when young.

Its hard to know if your dose was too high or low for you as you did not allow your body to stabilize on anything and if you had done BW at some point it would not be a good measure of anything to base corrective dosing on.

It takes months for the body to respond to the hormone changes and your feelings, mood and thoughts are also subject to that time frame.

If you search, you will find things like this:
“”"Thyroid disorders can affect our sense of well-being, our metabolism and our ability to ward off viruses and bacteria.

Some of the most common symptoms of low thyroid are weight gain, depression, fatigue, nonrefreshing sleep, anxiety/panic attacks, brittle nails, constipation, diffuse hair loss, sensitivity to cold, significantly calloused heels, chronic yeast infections and even infertility."""

Tyroid problems can easily show up as unspecific symptoms that are easily attributed to other things… such as getting older. The only definative thing is test results.

[quote]KSman wrote:
MichaelOH wrote:

I take it then that you are unconvinced that the t dose was too low and are suspicious that my erratic protocol is responsible?

As to thyroid I know nothing of the symps. I was/am lethargic and havi(ing) a hard time taking off weight. In addition I am now stupid. Also the last 2 days I have dandruff. If I recall this is low E? Havent taken the AI in a week.

Thyroid problems can cause low energy and problems with weight. My TRT really accelerated my skin growth and dandruff, but that is what I was like when young.

Its hard to know if your dose was too high or low for you as you did not allow your body to stabilize on anything and if you had done BW at some point it would not be a good measure of anything to base corrective dosing on.

It takes months for the body to respond to the hormone changes and your feelings, mood and thoughts are also subject to that time frame.

If you search, you will find things like this:
“”"Thyroid disorders can affect our sense of well-being, our metabolism and our ability to ward off viruses and bacteria.

Some of the most common symptoms of low thyroid are weight gain, depression, fatigue, nonrefreshing sleep, anxiety/panic attacks, brittle nails, constipation, diffuse hair loss, sensitivity to cold, significantly calloused heels, chronic yeast infections and even infertility."""

Tyroid problems can easily show up as unspecific symptoms that are easily attributed to other things… such as getting older. The only definative thing is test results.
[/quote]

Good post. Get thyroid checked . Remember that most endos are clueless and look at TSH, and that is pointless on its own. You MUST have a T3 test, that is crucial to seeing whats going on.