T Nation

TRT and Sermorelin


#1

Hey guys, quick stats.
30 years old
6'1
270 lbs
lifting for 15+ years
3500 calorie diet

Ok down to business, i've been on trt for a year now, when i started my t-lvls were 218, they have worked my dose up to 230 as of last monday. I had my blood drawn today and my t level was 379...i decided to change docs today, and she said she wanted to shock my system and restart my body...She up'd my dose to 300 every 7 days for 6 weeks. I'm also taking 500iu of HCG every 3.5 days. She said if that didnt bring my levels up i would need to go donate a unit of blood and start Sermorelin. My PSA, ESG and Hermatocrit come back tomorrow. She also said working out 5 days a week is what may be causing my body to be so low, which i think is bs. Any thoughts on doing trt with Sermorelin, i'm assuming already i will be able to cut fat and build muscle fairly easy with my dose that high. Thanks guys.


#2

what is your actual protocol?

t levels of 218 and worked dose up to 230 doesn't make any sense.

what form of testosterone are you on? Testosterone Cypionate or something else? I'd find it hard to believe someone coming to a dose of exactly 218mg/wk...and at that rate I couldn't see there being much difference then going to 230mg.


#3

sorry for the confusion, my test levels were 218 when i started. They started my dose at 160mg and worked me up to 240mg of cypionate


#4

Your doctor is an idiot.

Shock your system to restart it??? WTF does that mean.. how anyone with 1/2 a brain can think that adding more exogenous test is going to somehow magically restart ones one production is beyond me.

230mg of test should net you T levels of 1500 or so. You've got more going on there, if indeed your T levels are only 360 on 230mg test a week.

230mg of Cyp is a small steroid cycle, not TRT.


#5

jd, you need to learn a lot. We have good stickies here:
- advice for new guys
- protocol for injections
- finding a TRT doc

post your lab work with ranges in list form

We have a few hypermetabolisers of T here who need 300mg T cyp to get what 100mg does for most guys.

When you only inject once a week, your labs are quite useless as the results are mostly determined by lab timing. One should inject at least twice a week, many inject EOD. For hypermetabolisers, injections should be EOD.

How do you feel? Brain fog, energy, dull, fatigued .... ?


#6

will it let me post yet


#7

I apologized for it taking so long to reply, I posted several times but the post would never show up.

KSman-I've read through all your stickies, there's a great deal of valuable information in those forums. I really appreciate it. I asked about bi weekly injections, they informed me that although i'm not new to test injections i'm a new patient and they would need to get a couple months of blood work before making that decision. I was informed my vitamin D levels were very low about 6 months ago, i now supplement Vit-D twice daily but my levels remained the same.

age-30
height-73 inches
weight-270
waist-42
describe body and facial hair-average hair on entire body, thinker on arms, dont grow hair on calves for some reason
did to grow fast or slow and steady as a teen-slow and steady
testes ache or hurt? ever? before hcg all the time, now only 2 days after test and hcg injection but goes away after about 6 hours
mood-normal, energetic
depression-none
libido-desire constantly
get cold easily? a change? no usually always hot
dry skin, brittle nails? no
use iodized salt? occasionally in food
eat much sea food? 8oz of fish or shrimp daily
exposure to chemicals? burn pits in iraq
ever used hair loss drugs? no
Rx and OTC drugs-normal protein, creatine, glutamine, pre workout lifting supplements, as well as primrose oil, vit-d, multi-vit,

Labs
Estradiol 14.7pg/mL 7.6-42.6
Roche Eclia Methodology
Prostate-Specific Ag, Serum .6ng/mL 0.0-4.0
IGF-1 206ng/mL 98-282 (she wrote 226 above the number and said she never seen a number that high)
Hematocrit 48.5% 37.5-51.0

these are the only test they ran, i will request the labs for the other levels you recommend. I'm currently taking .8cc or 300mg of test with 500 (not sure the measurement on this but its in a small diabetic needle.) I'm on this protocol for 6 weeks at 240mg of test i couldn't get my levels above 375 TT. Want to see if you had any other recommendations.


#8

"I'm currently taking .8cc or 300mg of test with 500"...500 what?

how often are you taking 300mg of test? I saw something above saying you asked about more frequent injections and they said you're new so they want to wait after a couple months of labs? if you are self injecting at home, and the doc has you on some regiment that has proven shortcomings related to infrequent dosing...and you have the ability to dose more frequently to avoid those shortcoming without the doc knowing, but choose not to...man, wtf


#9

sorry 500 units of HCG
I'm taking 300mg or test every Tuesday, i dont inject myself its monitored by a doctor at a clinic. I'm new to their office not to taking T injections, i've been on them for a year, but my levels are hardly moving. I started at a weekly injection of 160 and the course of 11-13 months moved up to 240mg of t. My TT levels went from 218 to 379 in that time. Now i'm on 300mg of test once a week, and 500units of HCG split into two does. I have to be seen in the office to get injected.


#10

Find a new doc. You are obviously metabolizing it very fast and need to do self injections multiple times a week. I'd start with MWF at 50mg. Seemed to work for me and I have very low SHBG which means I tear through testosterone pretty quick. I'm in the 700s at that dose. It's half of what you're taking and I bet you get much better results.


#11

Thanks Dhickey, i'm going to talk to them on Tuesday about self injecting EOD on Tuesday. I know 300mg is alot of test, I know i should feel better than i do.


#12

How much vitamin D3 are you taking?
5,000iu in tiny oil based caps?

I have seen a few who need high amounts of T who also spill vitamin D and don't seem to respond very well to it.

Primrose oil as a source of essential fatty acids? For inflammation? Primrose oil sometimes does odd things, at least with female cycles, acts like it reduces progesterone or blocks it.

Why not fish oil?

You inject hCG at home?

The only reason I can see why your doc wants office injections is to make more money.


#13

I take 5000 iu of oil based vitamin D, yes the tiny caps, my blood work showed my d levels very low, but i've supplement d for about 3 months now with no results to speak of

Primrose oil from what i can tell is used for inflammation. My bodybuilding trainer uses it in all his clients

I do supplement with fish oil. 2 caps every morning

yes i inject 500mg of hcg at home and 500mg at the office. every Friday and Tuesday both into the abdomen

as far as the t injections go, i talked them into doing two injections a week. after a month of 300 mg or 1.25 cc of cypionate my levels were 475, still not very good. So now we are splitting the does, one Tuesday morning at .6 cc and the other Friday at lunch of .6 cc. Hopefully this will get my numbers back up where they want them.

I did have one question they mentioned that they use a very good cyionate that's better than some clinics, he said it 250 mg per mL, where most are 200 mg per ml. that make any since to y'all.

Thanks again for everyone's help.


#14

NO- that doesn't make sense and sounds like horseshit. pharmaceutical grade Test Cypionate is 200mg/mL or 100mg/mL...they have better than pharmaceutical grade? interesting.

report your doses in mg, nothing else. I personally won't bother to convert your 1.25cc to mg to figure out what you're taking, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

just to illustrate my point about reporting in mg's- look back at your posts. you have a post where you say ".8cc or 300mg" then here in your last post you say 1.25cc or 300mg. with your numbers all over the place how is anyone to know what you're talking about? report in mg. "100mg" of Test, or whatever else, will ALWAYS be 100mg regardless of the concentration.


#15

I'm on the same page, it is confusing as hell, which is why I asked. Don't they mix all medicines in injections with some type of suitable solubilizing agen or vegetable oilt. Maybe that's what they are referring to. Idk, that's why I asked if it made since. I did mess up with that .8 cc, that was actually 250 mg. now they are giving me 1.25 which they call 300mg. (Split between two does now.)


#16

it's really not that confusing if you are using the right terms. you are making it confusing because you are switching back and forth between the amount of the drug and the volume of the syringe.

think of it this way: let's imagine we drank our Test Cyp in a glass of water (do not do this!)

you have two syringes, both have your 300mg of Test Cypionate in them.

now, you have two glasses- one has 8oz of water, the other has 16oz of water. now take those syringes and squirt 300mg into each glass. Do you have a glass of 8oz Test Cyp and a glass with 16oz Test Cyp? NO. each still contains 300mg of Test Cyp. That is why we report doses in milligrams, so that there is no confusion in the different concentrations.

as for your other question about the oils and all that- don't worry about it! With the oil, alcohol, etc, I believe the accepted numbers are that you are getting 77mg of Testosterone per 100mg dose of Test Cypionate. But again, don't worry about it! when people are reporting their dose as 100mg for example, they are not drawing out 120-125mg of the solution of whatever the number would be to net them an actual 100mg of Test.

And the oil/alcohol that it's mixed with is not what they are accounting for when they are telling you their concentration is 250mg/mL compared to others 200mg/mL...it really just doesn't make sense. they don't know what they are talking about, in which case you should run. Or, they are giving you Sust 250, which is a blend of 4 or 5 different forms of test, totaling 250mg/mL, in which case they still don't know what they are talking about if they are giving you Sustanon 250 and telling you it's T Cyp, still RUN. Or, you are just very confused and don't know what you are talking about, in which case you need to buckle down and do some reading and learning because TRT needs to be handled with some dedication. Honestly, the first two are certainly a possibility, but I know the last one is at least somewhat true as you have demonstrated and admitted confusion in here already- I'm not saying that to be a dick, but to say to you- who the fuck is going to care about your well being if you yourself don't care enough to take the time to do some reading so you at least have some very basic knowledge of what you are doing with your health?


#17

i just did a quick google search and cant find prescription/pharma 250mg/ml Test Cypionate.

maybe im way off here, but id suggest you either call the office or stop in to find out what brand name this stuff is, exactly what it is, the concentration, etc. the only stuff i could find that was 250mg/ml Test Cyp was made by underground labs- and if people claiming to be doctors are giving you something other than pharmaceutical grade Testosterone, that's some serious red flags to me. i guess they could have it made up for them by a compounding pharmacy, but id find that pretty weird with the availability of legitimate Testosterone


#18

a. You were doing great helping me and helping me clear up my confusion, so for that thank you. but yes your last 2 statements were very dickish. "im not saying that to be a dick" is like, to quote will ferrel, "i said with all do respect, I can say what ever i want"

b. I do care about my health, hence me being on this forum to begin with. As you can see i joined in Nov 14, i apologize for not having my phd in trt as of yet, i'm still working on it. I've done hours of reading since November, which is why finally my t levels are rising. I read all the stickies KSman told me to.

c. yes my doses were all over the place, because in the end you were right I didn't know what i was talking about, but you helped me understand cc vs mg. I also wasn't completely clear about the amounts the doctors were actually giving me. This website is the reason i started asking questions.... btw, i looked for stickies about mixing cypionate with solubilizing agents to inject and couldn't find anything credible. I appreciate the criticism though.

d. I apologize for the confusion so to summarize why i'm here.
1. Q- do i need sermorelin with trt
A- no, from what i understand it only boost natural levels and mine are already very high, and its expensive as crap

    2. Q- I've been on trt for a year now (had 3 different doctors) my t levels started at 218 and now are at 475.  My dose started at 160mg of cypionate and worked my way up to 300mg cypionate.  why are my levels not skyrocketing like most guys.
       A- (thanks KSman) I hyper metabolize or hyper secrete Test, so i need to split my does to twice a week or EOD (every other day, i learned that from the stickies) which I am now doing. 

     3. Q- is there a difference between cyionate concentrations 
        A- (thanks Dez) No-i dont need to be concerned with CC's as its not important, they are giving me 300mg of test in each injection, what they are mixing it with to inject it is irrelevant. Bottom line post in MG not CC. Got it!

Bottom line, I greatly appreciate everyone's help with all of this. This forum has been a great tool in learning how trt is actually supposed to be done. Its helped me ask the right questions to get the results i'm paying for. After 3 doctors i believe I've found one that will follow KSman's protocols for the most part. In the end we will see what my next blood work shows.


#19

you know, I don't even really know where to begin to reply to that, as you are all over the place.

you don't like me telling you to step the fuck up and care more about your health than everyone else does...ok. then you admit that you were just showing up at the office, allowing them to give you doses of "Test Cypionate" without actually knowing how much they were giving you. VERY SMART.

"mixing test with solubizing agents..." Testosterone comes already mixed with what it's going to be mixed with. The vials that most of us get from the pharmacy, and take to our house where we know exactly how much (in MG) we are injecting ourselves with- this stuff is already mixed! Unless you are going to some super world class facility, I would expect theirs is already mixed too, even if they are giving you some proprietary blend. if they are mixing things up in the office and then injecting you, again, RUN. but, I'd suspect they are not doing this and you again are just misunderstanding the process because you are not informed- by your own choice regardless of what you think. if you had read the stickies at the too of this forum several times, to educate yourself a bit, you wouldn't be making these statements or acting so clueless.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you telling you how ridiculous you sound, when the information is readily available to you, and has been pointed out to you now several times. Like I said- and get ready to get your feelings hurt- "all due respect" but if you don't give a fuck, I certainly don't.


#20

the accusations about me not caring about my health, is the only thing that really pisses me off. Why the fuck would i be here if i didn't care. Read what i wrote, i care whats going on or i wouldn't constantly come back to this forum daily.

Once again as I've previously stated, I didnt know what i was doing, so yes misinformed, not educated, mistaken...what ever you wanna call it. All I knew was my T levels sucked and i wanted it fixed....alot like a surgery to repair something, i dont know how the fuck they do it, all i know is i want it fixed. Your telling me in every problem you've had in life, you ran in and fixed it and had every single detail figured out prior too. I was naive to think T-clinics have patients best interest and health in mind and not their pocket books. My big tell tell sign was when he told me he would do a lot more if i paid cash. With that being said, since finding this forum i've been able to educate myself much better and make recommendations for my treatment and switch doctors.

I was confused about the whole cc to mg thing, not sure why i once again need to repeat that, you are the one that helped me understand....just worry about the MG, simple enough. i even thanked you for helping me with what i should key in on.

if you criticize everyone and claim they dont give a fuck, their doctors are idiots and we should run, why would people continue to come here to be belittled. I'm simply here to clear up some of my trt questions and better educate myself, which i feel i've done. although i'm sure i'm just scratching the surface, i dont feel i'm clueless. i never dismissed your advice, but I don't particularly care for the accusations. Like i said i've read the stickies KSman asked me to, and have implemented several things that were in there. Now i'm waiting to see what results it yields.