They are looking to provoke, get the reaction they want from Israel and have people shed woke tears for them.
He sees Israel as the more powerful of the two belligerents because he doesn’t look at who supports Hamas.
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That’s the reward immigrant groups get in America when they work like dogs so their children can become successful. They go from oppressed (not white) to privileged (white).
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What are your thoughts on the reasons this latest round of rockets and airstrikes kicked off in the first place?
For the sake of this discussion, lets be clear that we are talking about Israel the country, and not about jewish folks. And yes, i’m sure some/many folks sympathizing with the Palestinians are using it as a dog whistle for anti-semitic views.
Wouldn’t “white” vs “not white” relate to skin tone? Not socio-economic class/status
As far as policy goes, it is the latter. Affirmative Action for example doesn’t help all minorities, in fact it hurts some. It is based on the average socio economic status of the whole group of a race, which is problematic. Hmong people for example are grouped in with Asians, but are not in the same socio economic status on average.
Some would even argue that the groups that AA targets end up hurt by it. For example, AA will get tier 2/3 (academically) minority students into tier 1 schools, and tier 3/4 minority students into a tier 2 school. There is a high dropout rate among these students. Likely a higher dropout rate than if they were in the school that was appropriate for their academic ability. This could result in less of the target minority ending up in the educated workforce. Not sure if I buy this or not, but an interesting argument I have heard.
Disproportionate? How many times do they have to allow rockets to bombard their country and kill their people before they have a right to respond with what you consider to be appropriate force? If Mexico launched rockets into the U.S., you can damn well believe our response would be “disproportionate”
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I think I agree with what was in the article, @Californiagrown .
Things just reach a certain point and explode, often due to a number of factors.
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(Hell…Texas alone would take care of that shit…!).
On a serious note, no. I don’t think that our reply would be “proportionate”.
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Maybe @Jewbacca or @loppar could respond to this…but I THINK Israel’s “policy” has always been that of an asymmetric response.
Seems to be a cycle of Israel implementing inflammatory policy detrimental to Palestinians which foments anger and hatred. Hamas leverages that to recruit young angry men with no prospects (in large part due to Israeli policy) to carry out terroristic attacks on Israel. Israel then responds with overwhelming force taking out the new crop of young angry palestinian men (mowing the grass policy) and temporarily inflicting enough carnage to stop the terroristic attacks from Hamas. Israel then continues implementing inflammatory policy, while resentment builds and 12 yr old arab boys growup, until it blows up again in 10 years and the grass needs to be mowed once more.
Or… hear me out here. Perhaps the Palestinian authority/Hamas could use some of the billions they receive yearly in foreign aid to building infrastructure, educational facilities, public handouts, healthcare facillities, tourism related industries and more as opposed to spending it on their martyr funds, digging underground tunnels into Isreal, procuring rockets to fling over borders. Members of parliament within the Palestinian Authority have also been found guilty of lining their own pockets with these donations.
Over the past few days I’ve been told thousands of rockets have been launched into Israel. How much do you think it costs to shoot out a missile? My family over there is in danger, they’ve been forced into underground bunkers. I’ve been affiliated with numerous Isreali’s for quite some time, from what I can perceive the blanket hatred appears to be more one sided within this conflict.
Public educational curriculums within Gaza/the west bank upon independent investigation have been found to harbour anti-semitic rhetoric, encouraging students to hate/discriminate. Inflammatory measures wouldn’t be a necessity if religious extremism and advocation for violence and terrorism wasn’t so rampant.
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Generally speaking, an IDF soldier using excessive force is sanctioned or imprisoned. A palestinian youth who dies in an act of violence is celebrated and his family is compensated under the “martyr fund”.
No… the IDF isn’t systemically cleansing the land of Palestinians. I don’t know where people hear this narrative from. There is no “ethnic cleansing” from the IDF, although Hamas certainly seems keen on the idea.
What do you expect an armed solider to do when in a tense environment and a plausibly armed young man starts charging at you.
Have you ever seen the aftermath/damage a suicide bombing can induce up close? I’ve seen the aftermath via shrapnel having virtually decimated a shopfront. It’s surreal, If I was armed and had reason to believe an individual was charging at me with a bomb strapped to his/her waist/backpack I’d probably shit a brick and shoot the guy/gal in the face.
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Nope. That stopped being an option in the first days of the 1948 war, not because of lack of want but disparity in military prowess. The Arab farmers of Palestine that were to become the Palestinians are horrible fighters.
IDF treats the Sunnis like a punching bag, but Shiites are a different matter altogether. That’s why military incursions and actions against Hezbollah happen much less often.
The big news of these latest conflagrations are Israeli Arab riots, not Hamas rockets.
Read Tom Segev’s book 1967 about the Six Day war. There’s a fascinating discussion between Rabin and Dayan about what to do with the Arabs in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. The IDF was too squeamish to go full Ottoman and start killing everyone and Dayan confidently asserted that occasional violence would be enough to entice the Arabs to leave. It was not.
Meanwhile, the Turks are laughing their asses off that no one ever asked them why aren’t there Greek, Armenian and Arab villages in Turkey anymore.
As I’ve said above, the big news of this conflict are the Israeli Arab riots aka the “internal intifada”, something that US leaders, including Biden do not seem to understand.
Forget Hamas and Gaza for a moment - these military confrontations happen regularly, the IDF wants to test their cool new weaponry and Hamas wants a bunch of dead civilians and martyrs for the PR war, especially now when Israel is becoming best buddies with the Gulf theocracies.
The city of Lod for example is in Israel proper. Not in Gaza nor in the West Bank. The people rioting are Israeli citizens, which brings us the questions whether the “right to defend itself” is applicable towards your own citizens.
And Israeli Arabs were relatively dormant for the last 60 years or so, supposedly a shining example of “disciplined natives” albeit with a clearly inferior social and economic status in the State of Israel.
The IDF are not. But some of the settlers…they have a distinctly old colonial vibe to them.
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Since race is a social construct it makes sense to the race hustlers.
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I think its a pretty well established fact that Israel responds to terroristic flareups from Hamas with overwhelming force. I mean, its rocks and unguided rockets vs the latest and greatest military tech that the US and Israeli militaries have at the time. Im not making a judgement here on whether that is the right thing to do or not… but look at the casualty counts. Its not close.
No doubt the PA isnt helping their people as much as they should/could. But im not sure how you can argue that israeli policies like the blockade, settlements and evictions, and a generally appartheid society dont hurt young Palestinian men and foment anger and resentment that is easy for hamas to then leverage into fresh followers and martyrs.
Still shouldnt be an excuse to target civilians with violence. I’m just commenting on the apparent acceptance/commitment of both sides to this cycle of violence .
The IDF uses a radar system to shoot down missiles, past this they conduct raids and strikes on the bases that launch these attacks. Citizens are given warning prior to strikes/raids, Hamas forces civillians to stay put under the credible threat of death. This isn’t an IDF problem, this is a Hamas/Palestinian Authority problem.
Furthermore, casualty statistics frequently encompass scenarios such as a citizen running up and trying to stab a solider. The solider turns around and shoots the civilian dead as a result.
Exists due to suicide bombers and terrorism. My prime qualm with the blockade is the undue suffering it imposes on those who have to navigate borders to get to work. No one should have to be getting up at 3 in the morning to work from 9-5… then only get back home at 11-12.
You’ve got me here, these exist in Palestinian territory and aren’t legal to operate/occupy under current guidelines.
My parents/family largely grew up in apartheid South Africa. From the stories I’ve heard of Isreal/Palestine vs Apartheid South Africa the comparison isn’t even close. Slavery during the 1800’s in the USA would be a closer comparison to Apartheid SA. Palestinians lack of access to adequate education/healthcare is largely a byproduct of their governments vested agenda. With the allocated funding Gaza/the West Bank procures each year in foreign aid it wouldn’t be difficult at all to improve educational outcomes, literacy rates and employment prospects. Palestinians aren’t disadvantaged due to ethnicity, they’re disadvantaged due to extremist government bodies in power, a (partially) radicalised population and rampant religious extremism.
Look at the Haredi Jews in Isreal. On AVERAGE they earn diddly squat, but the Isreali government is far more competent than the Palestinian authority and Hamas. As a result Haredi jews are compensated and can live primarily studying torah if they wish to do so. Economic disparities exist between the Haredim and the avg Isreali, yet if they so choose to go to college/get a job (as many do) there is on inherent disadvantage. If Palestinians had the opportunity to do all of the above I highly doubt socioeconomic disadvantages would be present as a byproduct of systematic racial discrimination.
It isn’t excused. IDF soldiers found guilty of killing civilians in cold blood will typically be given a jail sentence.
Regardless of societal constructs (advantages, disadvantages) a curriculum in school that teaches Palestinian men/women that jews are the enemy, evil, distrustful and malicious is going to incite hate regardless. Drumming such an ideology into your head from day one of education is sure to lead to radicalisation for some.
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Its not an IDF or PA/Hamas problem (well it is actually a problem for hamas). Its just a fact that Israel typically uses overwhelming force in response to Hamas terroristic tactics. why wouldnt they? Not sure why that is controversial to you or anyone else.
And as for your last paragraph, i was referencing the deplorable tactics of Hamas, not critiqing the IDF (you keep thinking i am and i havent critiquied the IDF). My posts aren’t translating over the internet today i guess haha.
Do you hold Israel blameless for the cycle of violence that seems to be never ending? Do you see a path forward toward peace that doesnt include complete submission of the PA?
The phrase “Don’t let your mouth write a check your butt can’t cash” is by applicable at both the individual and group level.
If one party decides to start a fight and fights with all they have, it becomes their problem when all they have isn’t nearly enough to win the fight.
This is especially true when the badass they picked a fight with is using only a fraction of their abilities to respond and still has people crying foul.
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Why do you consider it “overwhelming force” when they give warnings to civilians, attack only military targets, and have refrained from wiping the Palestinians off the planet despite numerous provocations? In your mind, what would be the proper response to having hundreds of rockets shot into your cities?
Overwhelming force doesnt mean improper, to me. Ive tried to clarify that i think 3 times now haha. Its overwhelming because the targets of the attack are COMPLETELY overwhelmed and stand no chance.
But to answer your question, im not sure i’d do much different. I think Israel typically does what it rationally can to limit civilian casualties in their retaliatory airstrikes. And i think that is really all that can be asked- to try and limit civilian casualties.
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