T Nation

Tren's Recovery

I’m going to run tren,prop and masteron or primo instead of Mast for my next cycle, 10 weeks

Prop 700mg - week
Tren 300 to 400 - week
Masteron 300 to 400 - week
Primo 400 - week

The thing is I already have the Primo but want to run the Prop and Tren for sure this next cycle, my question is, would this be a good lean mass cycle? or should I forget about the primo and go with masteron?

Also, I was curious as to how the vets have recovered from tren? I read that it is very supressive and takes awhile to recover from…a lot like deca? I have only used Prop and Test E in my first cycle, 10 weeks long

[quote]raiderUM wrote:
I’m going to run tren,prop and masteron or primo instead of Mast for my next cycle, 10 weeks

Prop 700mg - week
Tren 300 to 400 - week
Masteron 300 to 400 - week
Primo 400 - week

The thing is I already have the Primo but want to run the Prop and Tren for sure this next cycle, my question is, would this be a good lean mass cycle? or should I forget about the primo and go with masteron?

Also, I was curious as to how the vets have recovered from tren? I read that it is very supressive and takes awhile to recover from…a lot like deca? I have only used Prop and Test E in my first cycle, 10 weeks long[/quote]

to answer your 1st, yes it would

personally I would opt for the masterone, but even the low dose of primo would be synergistic in the combination

tren is very suppressive, effecting some more so than others. my first time with it was as little as 5 weeks low dose with test prop. it shut me down hard and fast, more so than I had ever experienced.

Tren is powerful, after 10 weeks expect maximum suppression, be prepared/take precautions.

to end on a positive note, it does build lean/hard muscle like no other

good luck

dezz

Nothing will combat the suppression itself, but using some (small doses of) HCG throughout your tren-based cycle should make for a quicker post-cycle recovery.

(I’m not speaking from experience though, just sharing what I intend to do when I get around to mixing in that tren)

Ok, thanks for the input! Anyone else want to add anything? Also, sense tren is so suppressive, should I go with 2 on 4 off or something like that??? anyone?

well, my test taper protocol was designed with stuff like that in mind.

Whatever you do, don’t go off directly after tren use.

[quote]raiderUM wrote:
Ok, thanks for the input! Anyone else want to add anything? Also, sense tren is so suppressive, should I go with 2 on 4 off or something like that??? anyone? [/quote]

No. If you are going to use tren inject it as often as possible with respect to the ester you are taking.

In other words, if you are taking tren ace - inject everyday. If you are taking tren E - e3d, or even eod.

The only thing more powerful than tren’s muscle/strength increases is the side effects. Keeping the blood levels as stable as possible reduces the tendency to have the bad sides.

There are no studies to support this, that I know of - just a ton of anecdotal evidence.

[quote]Prisoner wrote:
well, my test taper protocol was designed with stuff like that in mind.

Whatever you do, don’t go off directly after tren use.[/quote]

And I am very interested in your taper, but I think tapering with test prop would get old fast, way to many injections. Is it possible for me to run with Test Prop in my cycle and taper with Test E? If so, would I have to start injecting the test E 5 weeks before my cycle ends and the taper begains?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
raiderUM wrote:
Ok, thanks for the input! Anyone else want to add anything? Also, sense tren is so suppressive, should I go with 2 on 4 off or something like that??? anyone?

No. If you are going to use tren inject it as often as possible with respect to the ester you are taking.

In other words, if you are taking tren ace - inject everyday. If you are taking tren E - e3d, or even eod.

The only thing more powerful than tren’s muscle/strength increases is the side effects. Keeping the blood levels as stable as possible reduces the tendency to have the bad sides.

There are no studies to support this, that I know of - just a ton of anecdotal evidence.[/quote]

Although this is good advice, I think he was asking about the 2-week-on, 4-week-off short cycle protocol, not frequency of injections.

My own experience with tren has been with such cycles. 14 days of tren ace and dbol, even at fairly low doses, is very effective, but it’s also very suppressive. Nothing else has shut me down so hard. You’ll need proper PCT, whereas I’ve been able to get away with virtually no PCT at all when doing two week cycles with other steroids.

When I say “low doses”, I mean that 40mg/day of dbol and 37.5mg/day of tren ace for 14 days gave me really satisfying increases in strength, weight gain and visible improvements to muscles, with no side effects noticed.

But the first time I did one of these cycles I skimped on PCT and wound up feeling like crap and gained some unwanted bodyfat post-cycle.

Bottom line: while tren is very effective in two week cycles, you have to do proper PCT, so you might just want to go ahead and run it longer.

[quote]jwillow wrote:
rainjack wrote:
raiderUM wrote:
Ok, thanks for the input! Anyone else want to add anything? Also, sense tren is so suppressive, should I go with 2 on 4 off or something like that??? anyone?

No. If you are going to use tren inject it as often as possible with respect to the ester you are taking.

In other words, if you are taking tren ace - inject everyday. If you are taking tren E - e3d, or even eod.

The only thing more powerful than tren’s muscle/strength increases is the side effects. Keeping the blood levels as stable as possible reduces the tendency to have the bad sides.

There are no studies to support this, that I know of - just a ton of anecdotal evidence.

Although this is good advice, I think he was asking about the 2-week-on, 4-week-off short cycle protocol, not frequency of injections.

My own experience with tren has been with such cycles. 14 days of tren ace and dbol, even at fairly low doses, is very effective, but it’s also very suppressive. Nothing else has shut me down so hard. You’ll need proper PCT, whereas I’ve been able to get away with virtually no PCT at all when doing two week cycles with other steroids.

When I say “low doses”, I mean that 40mg/day of dbol and 37.5mg/day of tren ace for 14 days gave me really satisfying increases in strength, weight gain and visible improvements to muscles, with no side effects noticed.

But the first time I did one of these cycles I skimped on PCT and wound up feeling like crap and gained some unwanted bodyfat post-cycle.

Bottom line: while tren is very effective in two week cycles, you have to do proper PCT, so you might just want to go ahead and run it longer.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply to my question. Thats exactly what I wanted to know!

Glad to help. Let us know how your cycle goes.

Jake

[quote]rainjack wrote:
No. If you are going to use tren inject it as often as possible with respect to the ester you are taking.

In other words, if you are taking tren ace - inject everyday. If you are taking tren E - e3d, or even eod.

The only thing more powerful than tren’s muscle/strength increases is the side effects. Keeping the blood levels as stable as possible reduces the tendency to have the bad sides.

There are no studies to support this, that I know of - just a ton of anecdotal evidence.

[/quote]

There is indeed anecdotal evidence to support frequent injections. I actually believe that it is something else than the stability though… My theory is that it has to do with the body being able to metabolize a greater percentage of the drug when it is introduced on a more frequent basis.

When a lot of the drug is introduced at once on a not so frequent basis there is a tendency for a higher percentage of it to be aromatised thus leading to higher side-effects.

I have no research for this either, but I don’t think it has anything to do with the stability of the hormone levels per se.

Someone posted this over at SSB not too long ago and I thought it was good.

[quote]A poster at another forum wrote:

GG and Superduty got me thinking tho so I’d thought I’d try to explain it.

The goal of injecting steriods is to increase blood levels of testosterone much higher than can be achieved normally. One of our criteria in doing this is to keep blood levels as stable as possible throughout cycle to provide the best environment for growth and to avoid as many sides as possible.

I believe many side effects are caused by the spikes and dips created by once or twice a week injections, even using long esters. A way to reduce these sides would be to use a proper half life to determine when to inject or more importantly how much to frontload with.

Now most half lives are calculated on 1.5 x the number of carbon atoms to determine 1/2 life in days. Thats wrong! If you go to PubMed or AMJ you can look up numerous studies showing a much shorter half life(@ .7 per carbon atom)

That difference is because esters decay at a logarithmic rate, meaning the more esterified hormone in the injection depot, the more is released. This release rate slows as the amount of esterified hormone in the depot is reduced over time.
The general rule is about 0.7 X the number of carbons atoms in a linear ester . However when the body builder needs to keep in mind is that the majority of the esterified hormone is released, regardless of the ester, with the first 24hrs of injection because of the logarithmic rate of decay.
(THANKS TO BODY BY BALCO FOR HIS INFO)
What does this mean in simple terms?
I’ll useTestosterone Enthante in an 8 week cycle as an example:

Assume a 5 day half life for enthanate based on .7 x it’s carbons.
Injecting 579mg on day one of your cycle will provide stable levels of 550 mg per week for the duration of your cycle provided you replentish 75 mg EVERY DAY.
INJECT
Day 1- 579- giving you 550 mg in 24 hours
Day 2 75 giving you 550 mg
Day 3 75 550
Day 4 75 550
Day 5 75 550
Day 6 75 550
Day 7 75 550
Day 8 75 550
Day 9 75 550
Day10 75 550
Day11 75 550
Day12 75 550

and so on until day 57 when you stop injections
decay clearance is as follows
DAY Total MG
58 479
59 417
60 363
61 316
62 275
63 240
64 209
65 182
66 158
67 138
68 120
69 104
70 91
71 79
72 69
73 60
74 52
75 45
76 40
77 34
78 30
79 26
80 23
81 20
82 17
83 15
84 13
85 11
all the way down to day 98 (end of week 14) before the enth is totally cleared.


Enthanate Clearance 500 mg


Now let’s look at 1 shot of test enthanate of 500mg taken on day one.

It will take 8 weeks to clear(assuming a 5 day 1/2 life)

DAY Injected 500 mg(level)

1 500
2 475
3 414
4 360
5 313
6 273
7 238
8 207
9 180
10 157
11 136
12 119
13 103
14 90

and so- on until week 9 when it reaches 0.

Enthanate injected E3D at 250 mg-levels


NOw lets look at Injections of Test Enthanate every 3 days with 250 mg.
Blood levels are all over the place and create many dips and spikes.
Not a prime anabolic environment. It takes 7 days and 3 injections to even get to 500 mg(498) adn then continues to dip and spike the 500 mark until week 4 but then the spikes are over 600 mg. This daily flucuation cannot be good for combating sides or keeping steady growth rate.
The other way to look at it is $$$$. 500 ed levels would be more economical. You’d gain more.
I wonder if the 2 grams a week guys would do better on 1 gram injected every day vs 3x a week.

DAY INJECT TOTAL

1… .250… 238
2 …0… 207…
3 …0 …180
4… 250 …394
5 …0 …343
6 …0… 299
7 …250… 498
8 …0… 433
9… 0 …377
10 …250 …566
11… 0 …493
12… 0… 429
13 …250… 611
14… 0… 532
15… 0 …463
16… 250 …640
17 …0 …558
18 …0 …485
19 …250 …660
20… 0 …575
21 …0 …500
22 .250 …673
23… 0… 586
24… 0 …510
25 …250… 681
26… 0 …593
27… 0… 518
28 …250 …687
29 …0 …598
30 …0 …521

and so on.
^^That BTW, IS why you frontload.
[/quote]

Very nice info there Diana Bolann, if it happens to be accurate in real life.

But to me going back and forth from 470 to 620 doesn’t seem that bad. You cant make gains with 470?? I dont think there’s that more sides going between those levels, but I could be wrong.

If it was 200 to 800 maybe, but injecting TestE every day? No way! And it’s all THEORY. And if those numbers really do fluctuate that much with Test E, it would mean you’d have to inject Test prop or Tren A every 8 hours?

If those numbers are correct I find it useful info that injecting 500mg of Test E on day 1 means you’re below 100mg by day 15. Great stuff for those who do 2 week cycles.

[quote]SwD wrote:
Very nice info there Diana Bolann, if it happens to be accurate in real life.

But to me going back and forth from 470 to 620 doesn’t seem that bad. You cant make gains with 470?? I dont think there’s that more sides going between those levels, but I could be wrong.

If it was 200 to 800 maybe, but injecting TestE every day? No way! And it’s all THEORY. And if those numbers really do fluctuate that much with Test E, it would mean you’d have to inject Test prop or Tren A every 8 hours?

If those numbers are correct I find it useful info that injecting 500mg of Test E on day 1 means you’re below 100mg by day 15. Great stuff for those who do 2 week cycles.

[/quote]

It’s not my writing, and it actually doesn’t even support my pet theory that metabolization is what we want to induce. I just thought it was interesting. I actually use enanthate esters EOD. I tried 1X weekly and I got worse sides, so there is something to the frequency argument IMO.

Actually I find your pet theory quite plausible. And if you feel better with EOD injections then do it.

But it would mean to inject twice a day with fast acting esters to acheive the same goal.

The two times I used Tren A I injected EOD and didnt feel bad at all. I dont fear injecting obviously or I wouldnt do it, but I dont look forward to it either. That being said, I think you’re on to something.

Tren ace ED is the only way to go. And as for tren shutting you down hard. I dont like to use it for more than about four weeks at a time.

[quote]Diana Bolann wrote:
Someone posted this over at SSB not too long ago and I thought it was good.

A poster at another forum wrote:
snip
[/quote]

That’s great information, Diana Bolann, regardless whether it is theory or patently applicable.

I wonder if you wouldn’t mind posting the website you took it from, or even PMing me.

Thanks.