Tremendously Confused

I have read a lot on CW’s philosophy on training and training the deltoids by just doing benches and rows. Then i just read CT’s article on shoulders and he says “The delts are among the most important in the body yet many coaches recommend not training them directly. This is a big mistake! If anything, shoulder training should be the cornerstone of a good training program.” Im so confused b/w the two i dont know what to do and was wondering if any of you guys can help me out.I wanted to do ABBH, but according to CT i dont want to neglect my shoulders. I’d appreciate any help and experience.

Both are excellent strength coaches. Like any other field, experts will disagree. CW, I think, does not specialize on arms either, saying that rows or rope pulls are the best for biceps. IMO, the back would be the prime mover in that exercise and the biceps would not have total extension or contraction. That though, doesn’t negate other advice that Chad gives. Bear in mind too, that in physical performance and nutrition, new knowledge is constantly being discovered and that we’ll have, thanks to this forum, new supps and performance issues to consider.

I totally agree that both are excellent strength coaches. As with all coaches they will not agree on every aspect of training, thats what makes them different, and keeps their programs fresh.

I simply suggest, when you are following a CW program, as in ABBH, follow his protocals. Then when following CT’s, or whomever it may be next, follow their ideas. These programs are designed the way they are for a reason and give great results.

Hope That Helps.


Welcome to the wonderful world of weight lifting.

Every person has a different opinion in this business. You have to learn to accept it, dig your way through the junk, and find what works for you. Most of the time many philosophies will work. Chad can apparently develop bowling ball delts without direct work, while CT feels differently. It doesn’t mean that one of them is wrong. Remember, its a THINK TANK. And evidently in every aspect too since two writters that write for the same magazine about something as simple and straight foreward as this have completely opposing views.

The only person that can tell you how much delt work you need is yourself.

I don’t think it’s quite as simple as this. They are both far too good at what they do to make the mistake of prescribing certain methodolgies for others purely based on what works for themselves.

As advice, I can only reiterate to try things for yourself and see what works, as there are too many experts who disagree, and even if they agreed, one would probably be wise to be suspicous, as people’s bodies are so different and even differ from themselves in terms of weak points from time to time.

None of this is to say that it would be bad to have this issue of shoulder training debated on the forum, but I doubt you will come to any testomony here, which will provide you the sort of answer that experimenting with yourself will.

This is the beauty of the T-Nation. Different ideas and philosophies of training are taught by the industries best. Both have trained countless people with their differing methods and both have produced great results. Bottom line, as someone else already said, try both and see what your body responds to. Some people require direct shoulder training while, for some, training shoulders directly would be too much for the delts to recover from after all the pressing and rowing. Find what works for you because there never will be a definitive “best” way.

Jreed212, in my opinion CW and CT are excellent trainers. Certainly deltoids are important muscles. If well developed they contribute to the V- shape that I believe everybody want to achieve. Anyway deltoids are small muscles and are already involved in chest & back training. So they need a proper recovery to avoid overtraining. A way to to this is to use a one day on/ one day off routine alternating upper body and legs training. An example is ABBH. In day 5 (vertical push/pull) it is possible to use military presses instead of dips. In ABBH2, day 5, we have db military presses and upright rows. Just to say that CW does not neglect direct deltoids training. My advice is to experiment both CW’s and CT’s workouts and see what works better for you.

I agree totally as well…the key is to find out what works for you and the only way to do that is to experiment.
personally find that i can progress a little without directly attacking my delts, but when I do i get a lot better response.

Thanks for your input guys, it really helped. Its just that there is so much information out there that its just so hard sometimes to see what works and what doesnt. Especially when its two different philosophies from two great strength coaches. Thanks again

The building of muscle is always a work in progress.

I think we all agree that for a long term (I’m talking over a span of years or a lifetime), change is the only constant. You need to change your routines. Over the last 18 years, I’ve lost count of the number of different protocols I’ve used…almost all are successful in the beginning and for a period of time. When the program is not producing results, find a different way to approach the workouts. I’ve also changed trainers a couple of times in the past, and it’s also good stimuli both mentally and physically.

I think you may find that CW and CT approach training from different prospectives and from time to time with different goals. You may have noticed that CT has changed his focus over the past year from a strength building program to experimenting with bodybuilding and symmetry.

I think all the trainers share what they are progressively learning as they train themselves and others. This will automatically change as they adjust their coaching styles to accommodate their new knowledge and results.

It’s been suggested on T-Mag over and over that it’s important to keep training diaries. It’s specifically for this reason…training evolves, and it’s imperative over a lifetime of training to know where you have been, and what you have learned.

None of these programs are intended to be followed unchanged forever. Sooner or later we all need to be responsible for our own workouts. So, read everything you can get your hands on by the great coaches and masters (leave the mags alone), and use their knowledge in combination with your own.

you need to analyze the goals of the workouts that are written by both coaches. CT’s latest workout posted is for shoulder specialization if that is a weak point in your physique. Maybe your shoulders are already strong and big and you don’t need to do this specific program. I like the advise given by someone else saying that if you are going to follow a program by a given coach, do it for a specific amount of time and follow the instructions as written. Don’t just do it for a few workouts and stop. You wont allow the body to adjust neurally and then structurally. laters pk