T Nation



I hope you can help me. I am a 52 year old male currently under monitoring by an endocrinologist for low testosterone levels. I have a blood test done monthly for the next two months to see if the levels lift naturally. If not the specialist will supplement orally. If I were to use Trembolone to help maitain my muscle mass, will it in any way effect the blood test results?
Hope you can advise me.


I think you mean trenbolone. What were your test levels at. I'd say stay away from that and get on your doctor. I think anything you add right now will alter your results. Ask Anthony about this on his locker room, he's the man to see.

Here is a quote from Anthony Roberts profile on it "Trenbolone, being a powerful progestin, will also shut down natural testosterone production which even a relatively small dose and keep the testosterone level suppressed for an extended period of time, this can lower libido and cause erectile dysfunction (fina dick). It is essential that you always stack trenbolone with testosterone."

Here is a link to that profile by Anthony Roberts.



I'll politely disagree with my fellow Canadian, on the A.R. being the man to see. However if you use trenbolone, it will shut your test levels down hard! On the same hand it will skew your blood work right off the charts, so you most definitely won't get any helf from your doc. Best form of hrt in my opinion is a combination of masteron or secondly proviron and testosterone.

Good luck with all that, I highly advise you stay away from trenbolone for now, as you can become where you are dependant of testosterone for your libido,but your doc will view you as a steroid abuser, and will withhold treatment.


But wont masteron shut down your libido without test added, not to mention masteron alone will destroy your mood?


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With Mas. alone your test levels would be cut off, killing libido and general mood.


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Masteron is close to pure DHT. DHT is the the hormone that testosterone needs to be converted to to support libido. The reason why many steroids do not support libido, is mainly because they do not convert to dht and therefore cause suppression of natural test production, but do not make up for this by converting to DHT themselves to keep your libido functioning.

Now, yes granted masteron will be just as suppressive as testosteone, however, it doesn't aromatise, but equally supports libido function. Therefore you can actually use 50% masteron and cut your dose of test in half that you are using for hrt purposes, and the results will be the same level of libido - maybe even slightly increased due to it's SHBG afinity, but you won't have to contend with the gynocomastia issue - you won't need to use arimidex or any other anti-E while on. The reason for this is that masteron cannot aromatize, and actually acts as an anti-estrogen, simmilar to proviron, itself.

Masteron is a great drug!


I agree with prisoner 22 on the masteron and test. However I think you should be talking to your doctor and explaining your worries.

If your doctor isn't game find a new one. Look up Cy Wilson's Your Doctor Your Dealer article. It explains how to find a good doctor and how Nolvadex, Arimidex, and Clomid can be used as a form of hormone replacement in hypogonadal men. Also have a look at his article entitled "Get Your Mojo Back". It will give you some info.


I definitely respect the given opinions, as I am basing my statement on my current gym partner who is getting ready for a show in a few weeks and is on Masteron and Winny only right now. He is complaining of horrible mood swings and lack of libido since dropping his test, in order to avoid excess bloat.

Speaking of P-22, could you post your AAS choices for the last month before a show? How do you time your carb up and sodium intake? Maybe u did already, or if you dont want to make that public knowledge I understand.

There is just so much difference in how one person does it compared to another. Luckily I am a powerlifter/recenet olympic weightlifter and only have to worry about making 242. But I am interested in doing one BB show just to say I did


Didn't Tommy Dorsey play jazz trembolone in the 1940's???


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Which part to you disagree with in that profile?

Or just that, in general, I'm not worth listening to?

If you have a disagrement with something from my profiles or writing, I'd like to see a counterargument with references.


If you use Tren, it will shut down 100% of your natural testosterone levels. Most likely your LH and FSH will register very low (bottom of the chart) and your T3 levels will fall.
Your RBC will go up, and certain other areas. Blood lipids will likely be affected.

I suspect that your low test levels from the Tren will be enough to get you a 'script for some Test; but if your lipid profile or any other areas are severely compromised, your doctor could feel that the risks of putting you on androgens may outweigh the benefits.


I don't disagree with everything you have to say, however we have differing opinons on what I believe is the most important part of steroid cycling: PCT.

Now the fact that you yourself havn't even tried you protocol, and only tested it on 3 of your buddies, doesn't make for legitimate research. Then you go off pedaling your protocol in the form of a book that people can buy to enrich yourself, when if fact you are not helping anyone, you are hurting them, and profitting from it.

Now whether this is a little bit of quakery or fraud, I don't know, but fundementally it is wrong what your doing.

Obviously your not a proffesional so you are not bound by any code of ethics, and since that is the case, it is up to me to expose you.

Now you can site all your 'research all you like' but in the end steroid cycling, and pct is bound by the same rules of pharmacology, and physiology, as every other medical therapy. And that you are certainly no expert in, and not to mention you have absolutely no background in bodybuilding.

You are simply just here for the money. That is all. Everyone else is here because they want to learn - they want to get bigger, look better, or possibly compete someday.

I am here because I enjoy helping people. I see a lot of post on here from people looking for a little guidence. It could be the difference between having a postitive experience or a negative one. If I am able to help in any way, drawing from my 15 years of training experience, medical background, and BB experience, then great!


I don't have a heck of a lot of time to get into this right now, but i'll say this - I eliminate all steroids that convert to estrogen and progesterone going into a show. I keep masteron, and winstrol.

A good part of the comming in just right is being lean enough, and proper water manipulation and carb load. It is smart to practice a few times heading into a show to ensure you get it right. Everyone is different, as to how much carbs they need to load.

For me, my current plan for this year is to stop water intake the night before the show around 8:00, Carb loading begins on the Friday, all day, and into the night and continues the morning of the show with sips of water. Everyone is different though, and I will be doing some experimenting this year leading into the show to find exactly the best approach for myself, as last year I came in a little flat.

I am planning on using a lot of honey this year again - i used that approach 2 years ago and came in looking my best ever. We'll just have to see how the practice session goes though.

Water loading you should begin and slowly increase 4-6 weeks out. Some drink 2 gallons per day. I can't. You need to increase you sodium with your water load as your sodium will dip down too low if you don't - which will cause aldosterone release and sodium to be retained along with water.

When you cut water you cut out sodium as well, as after water intake is finished excess salt will prevent diuresses via aldosterone also.

Anyways this is the brief general idea of things. Sorry I can't get too detailed, bottom line is those are the basics, you need to figure out exactly what works best for you.


My opinion, if I recall, is shared by Cy, Bill Roberts, William Llewellyn, and several others. It is the contrary of your opinion.

In fact...nearly every expert on the subject disagrees with you. Every published expert, anyway.

Please post references. Please show me one single person who has listened to my advice fully and has been hurt by it.


You are making claims, but not supporting them with references or anything of the sort.
My protocol is based on sounde reasoning, and has had a couple of successful test runs.

Cressey read my book and thinks it's good, as have several members of the staff here, in addition to world class strength coaches from here and elsewhere, and not one has shared your opinion. But then, what do they know, right?

Interestingly, you once claimed to have done my PCT a long time ago, and then upon further inspection, your claim fell apart:


In fact, by the end of the discussion, it had become apparent you lhadn't even understood or read my PCT beforehand.


Expose me.

Please continue to post zero references, cite zero industry-credible people you have worked with or who share your views, or who think your work is valuable...

If that's exposing me, then you can do it all day.

You, so far, have roughly the same credibility as the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause. You haven't cited anything credible , not one medical journal, and actually (laughably) have compared opiates and corticosteroids to anabolics to support your PCT ideas.

Ho ho ho...

PCT and performance enhancement is medical therapy, huh? Can you point me to a textbook on it, or a class offered at a university on it?

Those things you mentioned are underground way to use medicine(s), and thus, the underground is ALWAYS going to be ahead of the medical community.

Good thing I don't write about bodybuilding, huh?

Granted, I'm not here to learn, but rather to teach (although there are several people here I can and do learn from).


Aren't you a doctor for the money?
Or do you moonlight as a doctor in your spare time? Do you see patients for free? If not, then aren't you "in it for the money" also. I mean...this is my field...ought not I be paid for working in it?

What's wrong with being a professional in this industry and being on a highly credible website because it helps my career?

Somehow this makes me Jack the Ripper, apparently...

I answer all the PMs I get, all the e-mails, and all the questions for me in my locker-room threads. Free. Totally Free.

I write stuff that is available for free all over the net(cycle design articles, PCT articles, profiles, etc...). In fact, there is more free stuff by me on the 'net than in my book (page wise, although it is different stuff).

I've got over 500 pages of my work available for free on the 'net. FREE.

Would I like people to buy my book? Yeah.

But if I were a betting man, I would imagine that I contribute more free work to my industry than you do to yours.

In fact, how about this:

I'll work for free, for all of my clients, for the next two months, on the agreement that every piece of writing I produce (at the same work rate/load) be released totally free to the public.

If you will do the same....i.e. you give free medical care to anone and everyone who wants it for free for two months.

If you aren't willing to do YOUR job for free, then don't bitch about me getting paid for mine.

Put up or shut up.



What steroids convert to progesterone, and why would they even be in a precontest cycle, and then need to be eliminated later?


sorry buddy, you have a degree in english. You are very clever at debate, and allthough I can hold my own if I wish, I lack the time and the inclination to do so.

You would be very supprised to know just how many people pm me who are looking for an alternative to your 'protocol'. So far no complaints.

You see you may be book smart but you lack experience.

As for progesterone, yeah there is no 'conversion' but there are steroids that you may use going into a show that have some progesteronic action. Trenbolone is the one I was thinking of. I have used it for the last three shows, now I am going to stop it this year early to see if my theory tests true. -I believe that it may prevent me from achieving that 'super peeled look' Although last year I was ripped to the bone. (Since I don't believe in using diuretics going into the show)I believe I may have been better off just going into the show without trenbolone. We'll see this year.

Final note: It's interesting you use Cy's name now when it was he that I actually got the testosterone taper idea from.

P.S. Don't bother tearing apart this post because I am not going to play your little baby games that you end up getting into with just about every vet on this board. You'd think you'd take a hint by now.


I don't have to.

You did a fine job discrediting yourself by that last comment.