[quote]Chushin wrote:
Your posts never fail to be interesting, my friend.[/quote]
Sounds like a Chinese curse.
So are you still a vegetarian or have you been to Harveyās drive-thru this week?
Vegetarian, but have had some full blown vegan days in the past week. So I now consider the title of this thread as not so misleading as I thought it was. When I made it I was in what is considered the pre-contemplation stage of behavioral change. I had one and a half weeks of eating some meat since making it, but this past week has been mostly vegetarian days with some vegan days. I donāt think people, including myself, make such drastic lifestyle changes in a day. Again, this is not a life-long pledge and Iāve made this decision from information Iāve gathered, my own thoughts, and my understanding and education in nutrition/dietetics. I aired it out here because I trust all here, despite getting a little overworked here and there. I like and respect all here. I donāt think it would be good to share this on the majority of boards. I appreciate everyone being civil and respectful aside from a snide comment here, which is insignificant and in many cases, FUNNY, even if itās poked at me. 
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Vegetarian, but have had some full blown vegan days in the past week. So I now consider the title of this thread as not so misleading as I thought it was. When I made it I was in what is considered the pre-contemplation stage of behavioral change. I had one and a half weeks of eating some meat since making it, but this past week has been mostly vegetarian days with some vegan days. I donāt think people, including myself, make such drastic lifestyle changes in a day. Again, this is not a life-long pledge and Iāve made this decision from information Iāve gathered, my own thoughts, and my understanding and education in nutrition/dietetics. I aired it out here because I trust all here, despite getting a little overworked here and there. I like and respect all here. I donāt think it would be good to share this on the majority of boards. I appreciate everyone being civil and respectful aside from a snide comment here, which is insignificant and in many cases, FUNNY, even if itās poked at me. [/quote]
Brick, would you care to discuss (in a nutshell) how your macro requirements will be fulfilled - especially protein?
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Vegetarian, but have had some full blown vegan days in the past week. So I now consider the title of this thread as not so misleading as I thought it was. When I made it I was in what is considered the pre-contemplation stage of behavioral change. I had one and a half weeks of eating some meat since making it, but this past week has been mostly vegetarian days with some vegan days. I donāt think people, including myself, make such drastic lifestyle changes in a day. Again, this is not a life-long pledge and Iāve made this decision from information Iāve gathered, my own thoughts, and my understanding and education in nutrition/dietetics. I aired it out here because I trust all here, despite getting a little overworked here and there. I like and respect all here. I donāt think it would be good to share this on the majority of boards. I appreciate everyone being civil and respectful aside from a snide comment here, which is insignificant and in many cases, FUNNY, even if itās poked at me. [/quote]
Brick, would you care to discuss (in a nutshell) how your macro requirements will be fulfilled - especially protein?
[/quote]
Iāve been eating with portion control and instinctively lately, til moderately full. Itās pretty much what John Berardi and Precision Nutrition recommend for portion control that Iāve been using for some time and itās good for people who do not want to drive themselves insane with counting every calorie and macro, which I find totally impractical for me. Iāve done it here and there to get on track when I felt I needed to trim down a bit some times and then do portion control from there. But for now, I am using simple portion control for plant-based diets.
So in a nutshell, what Iām doing is this:
Protein
eggs (Like I said, from the āurban farmā where have here in Queens, around the corner from me. I hardly have them as only a dozen can be bought at a time and I only go there on Saturday afternoons, and not regularly. So maybe a day or two a week I have them.)
soy products (tofu, tempeh, beans)
variety of pulses (lentils, all kinds of beans, peas)
Carbs
These supply some of the protein I am getting, and obviously pulses and soy products contain carbs, so this is a carb heavy diet.
corn
quinoa
Ezekiel bread
oatmeal
rice
amaranth
potatoes
yucca
Fats
seeds
nuts
oils
avocados
Fruits
All kinds
veggies
All kinds
If I had to estimate what I am doing, I probably am getting 100 to 120 grams of protein a day depending on what protein sources I eat. My view on protein has changed and Iāll see what happens. It is certainly enough for fine health. I donāt know what will happen to my body comp though, but there are plenty of people I know or have known of who have been fine on relatively lower protein amountsālower than the BB recommendation of 1 gram per pound (or in some cases, an insane 2 g per pound).
The stuff I was worried about was omega-3ās, but I am getting that from flax and chia seeds and can get some EPA and DHA from sea veggies like seaweed and kombu. I eat some of the seaweed snacks that are common now and I plan on getting more stuff from the Asian market near me. Iām also concerned about B12, but thatās in eggs and if phase them out I will just supplement.
So a sample day for me this week was:
Breakfast
Several slices of maple ābaconā flavored Tofurky strips
refried beans
oatmeal with flaxseeds and blueberries
Lunch
Falafel burger (homemade)
pita bread
Large salad with olive oil and vinegar
apple
Snack
peanut butter sandwich with ezekiel bread
banana
dried seaweed snack
Dinner
salad
chickpea-rice pasta (forgot brand name that makes this) with tomato sauce and green peas
Thanks for the posts and compliments here Clunk.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Vegetarian, but have had some full blown vegan days in the past week. So I now consider the title of this thread as not so misleading as I thought it was. When I made it I was in what is considered the pre-contemplation stage of behavioral change. I had one and a half weeks of eating some meat since making it, but this past week has been mostly vegetarian days with some vegan days. I donāt think people, including myself, make such drastic lifestyle changes in a day. Again, this is not a life-long pledge and Iāve made this decision from information Iāve gathered, my own thoughts, and my understanding and education in nutrition/dietetics. I aired it out here because I trust all here, despite getting a little overworked here and there. I like and respect all here. I donāt think it would be good to share this on the majority of boards. I appreciate everyone being civil and respectful aside from a snide comment here, which is insignificant and in many cases, FUNNY, even if itās poked at me. [/quote]
Brick, would you care to discuss (in a nutshell) how your macro requirements will be fulfilled - especially protein?
[/quote]
Iāve been eating with portion control and instinctively lately, til moderately full. Itās pretty much what John Berardi and Precision Nutrition recommend for portion control that Iāve been using for some time and itās good for people who do not want to drive themselves insane with counting every calorie and macro, which I find totally impractical for me. Iāve done it here and there to get on track when I felt I needed to trim down a bit some times and then do portion control from there. But for now, I am using simple portion control for plant-based diets.
So in a nutshell, what Iām doing is this:
Protein
eggs (Like I said, from the āurban farmā where have here in Queens, around the corner from me. I hardly have them as only a dozen can be bought at a time and I only go there on Saturday afternoons, and not regularly. So maybe a day or two a week I have them.)
soy products (tofu, tempeh, beans)
variety of pulses (lentils, all kinds of beans, peas)
Carbs
These supply some of the protein I am getting, and obviously pulses and soy products contain carbs, so this is a carb heavy diet.
corn
quinoa
Ezekiel bread
oatmeal
rice
amaranth
potatoes
yucca
Fats
seeds
nuts
oils
avocados
Fruits
All kinds
veggies
All kinds
If I had to estimate what I am doing, I probably am getting 100 to 120 grams of protein a day depending on what protein sources I eat. My view on protein has changed and Iāll see what happens. It is certainly enough for fine health. I donāt know what will happen to my body comp though, but there are plenty of people I know or have known of who have been fine on relatively lower protein amountsālower than the BB recommendation of 1 gram per pound (or in some cases, an insane 2 g per pound).
The stuff I was worried about was omega-3ās, but I am getting that from flax and chia seeds and can get some EPA and DHA from sea veggies like seaweed and kombu. I eat some of the seaweed snacks that are common now and I plan on getting more stuff from the Asian market near me. Iām also concerned about B12, but thatās in eggs and if phase them out I will just supplement.
So a sample day for me this week was:
Breakfast
Several slices of maple ābaconā flavored Tofurky strips
refried beans
oatmeal with flaxseeds and blueberries
Lunch
Falafel burger (homemade)
pita bread
Large salad with olive oil and vinegar
apple
Snack
peanut butter sandwich with ezekiel bread
banana
dried seaweed snack
Dinner
salad
chickpea-rice pasta (forgot brand name that makes this) with tomato sauce and green peas
Thanks for the posts and compliments here Clunk.
[/quote]
Excellent! Looks very nutritious and balanced.
In my own experience, dropping protein grams made no difference in my physiqueās appearance, or gym performance. Carbs and total caloric intake were the keys to keeping mass and energy in the gym.
How is your digestion with this new āline-up?ā Although I am still a flesh eater (grass-fed beef daily, all types of fish, chicken, free-range eggs) I have fairly recently added organic leafy greens in large quantities to every meal, and my digestion has been the best itās been in years.
My digestion (more like āregularityā) is the best itās ever been.
Yes, the protein thing is overhyped I believe. And I notice that even some studies that have āprovenā that very high amounts are needed have been conducted by researchers who have direct ties to protein biz. Thereās nothing wrong with protein supps and Iāve used Plazma and others and like them. Iāve just notice that some who push such high protein have something to sell.
Brick, any change in the amount you spend on food? Cheaper, same, more??
Interesting thread!
3 questions/points that Iām curious aboutā¦
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
So in a nutshell, what Iām doing is this:
Protein
ā¦
soy products (tofu, tempeh, beans)
ā¦[/quote]
Iāve read from some sources (most were articles on this site) that eating soy products is a great way to increase estrogen. Is that a concern for you?
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
ā¦
If I had to estimate what I am doing, I probably am getting 100 to 120 grams of protein a day depending on what protein sources I eat. My view on protein has changed and Iāll see what happens. It is certainly enough for fine health. I donāt know what will happen to my body comp though, but there are plenty of people I know or have known of who have been fine on relatively lower protein amountsālower than the BB recommendation of 1 gram per pound (or in some cases, an insane 2 g per pound).
ā¦
[/quote]
I agree that the need for protein tends to be overblown, however if my memory serves me correctly (which it doesnāt always), people are typically told to take in 1.5 or more grams per pound of goal weight when they are specifially trying to gain weight and are āhard gainersā (I know there are a lot that would argue there is no such thing, just people who donāt eat enough).
Is it that common to recommend so much protein when youāve already done a lot of work and are already at a certain point? What percentage of bodyweight would 100 to 120 grams of protein fall into for you? if you donāt mind me askingā¦
My logic is that if it is below 50% grams per pound for goal bodyweight, Iām thinking it might be a little low. Also, I am aware that youāre just testing it out. This is really more just for discussion purposes than anything else. Iām bored at work, haha.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Yes, the protein thing is overhyped I believe. And I notice that even some studies that have āprovenā that very high amounts are needed have been conducted by researchers who have direct ties to protein biz. Thereās nothing wrong with protein supps and Iāve used Plazma and others and like them. Iāve just notice that some who push such high protein have something to sell. [/quote]
I feel like the same could be true in reverse. Iāve talked to a few vegans and seen some of their documentary videos that they like to show to sell people on their lifestyle and it always seemed to me like the videos and concepts could easily be getting pushed because they have something to sell, as well. Your thoughts?
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
Iāve read from some sources (most were articles on this site) that eating soy products is a great way to increase estrogen. Is that a concern for you? [/quote]
Iāve read that for years on bodybuilding websites. However I do not buy it. Phytoestrogens are not the same as estrogen. I get my estradiol checked every three or four months, so I can see if this actually holds water. There are vegans taking in more than 50 grams of soy protein a day with no ill effects, my close friend being one of them.
Same goes for thyroid function. If remember correctly, there was some study in a thyroidology journal which showed no negative effects on thyroid function. I am usually too lazy, and, to be honest, disinterested in shuffling studies around. There are other men who love doing that.
[quote]
I agree that the need for protein tends to be overblown, however if my memory serves me correctly (which it doesnāt always), people are typically told to take in 1.5 or more grams per pound of goal weight when they are specifially trying to gain weight and are āhard gainersā (I know there are a lot that would argue there is no such thing, just people who donāt eat enough). [/quote]
For a long time now, the general recommendation has been 0.8-1 g per pound. Iāve seen some trainers and nutritionists recommend or plan 1.5 to 2 grams per pound, and I believe that is an outrageous amount of protein. There has been some research (again, too lazy, but might look for it, and it has been referenced by Lonnie Lowery on this site before) in which it was shown that a measly 20 to 30 grams of protein three to five times a day is enough for muscle growth, irrespective of bodyweight. I think this research also showed steroid users who gained something like 13 pounds of LBM in a few months with this amount which is likely far lower than 1 gram per pound.
Many dietitians recommend 1.2 to 1.7 g/kg and in some cases, 2 g/kg, depending on how low total calories are.
Mike Mentor stated over and over that he would consume 60 to 80 grams of protein a day and he was an elite competitor, and I donāt have a reason to disbelieve him considering he didnāt have anything to gain from such a statement, nor was he some guy that liked to pull peopleās chain. Nasser el Sonbaty said he only took in about 100 grams a day and he was enormous. Again, I donāt see why heād say that; itās not shocking, and if anything would have sponsors not endorsing him with their products. I have an acquaintance that knew Nasser very well, and while she did say he liked to rile people up by saying dumb crap, I donāt see how that would be effective in this case.
[quote]
Is it that common to recommend so much protein when youāve already done a lot of work and are already at a certain point? What percentage of bodyweight would 100 to 120 grams of protein fall into for you? if you donāt mind me askingā¦ [/quote]
Around 0.5 to 0.6 g/lb. Yes, I think you can get away with less once youāve built the muscle with a bit more, but I no longer believe you need so damn much. Dave Tate reached an enormous size taking in less than a gram per pound, as he said in his articles dealing with his transformation with John Berardi.
[quote]
My logic is that if it is below 50% grams per pound for goal bodyweight, Iām thinking it might be a little low. Also, I am aware that youāre just testing it out. This is really more just for discussion purposes than anything else. Iām bored at work, haha. [/quote]
Thatās fine. I used to think that it would be too low, but, as I said, I donāt think itās so low that gains or maintenance canāt be had. Besides, 100 to 120 grams is more than enough for well being and healthāabsolutely nothing unhealthy with this amount.
[quote]
I feel like the same could be true in reverse. Iāve talked to a few vegans and seen some of their documentary videos that they like to show to sell people on their lifestyle and it always seemed to me like the videos and concepts could easily be getting pushed because they have something to sell, as well. Your thoughts?[/quote]
Of course. There are vegan books, clothing, shampoos, food, supplements, you name it. Thereās nothing wrong with selling things, including protein powder, some of which Iāve liked and used. Itās just I noticed the ones pushing insane protein amounts (like someone well all know of very well, but I will not mention, who does recommend unnecessary amounts) have protein powder to sell. Again, nothing wrong with the sales aspect of it. Itās just misleading about the nutrition recommendation.
[quote]scoots2 wrote:
Brick, any change in the amount you spend on food? Cheaper, same, more??
Interesting thread![/quote]
Thanks!
Well, like a month ago, when my wife and I started to make this transition (with some slips, as shown in this thread, lol), we went nuts and bought a shit ton of stuff from Fairway. We both love food and cooking, so we got excited to try new stuff, and wound up buying all sorts of stuff, totaling about 400 bucks over two weeks (perhaps not THAT expensive, considering we do not dine out much at all, and meals eaten out can be very expensive): chia and flaxseeds, chia seed drinks, Tofurkey items, other tofu items, edamame, corn, all sorts of beans, nuts, fruits, veggies, different vinegars, amaranth, quinoa, rice, Ezekiel bread, gritsā¦ like nuts!
We overdid it, but weāve used a lot of it, and since then have not had to shop for so much. This diet can be so cheap, especially if one does not buy organic plant foods. A can of beans is dirt cheap. Rice is dirt cheap. Potatoes, oatmeal, grits, nut butters. This is really not expensive stuff, and thereās a reason people in this world who live on a buck a day eat rice and beans.
Danny Padilla got in the best shape of his life for the '81 Olympia (and should have won) taking in only 80 gm of protein per day! He shrewdly manipulated carbs and total cal intake to achieve his best form ever.
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
In my own experience, dropping protein grams made no difference in my physiqueās appearance, or gym performance. Carbs and total caloric intake were the keys to keeping mass and energy in the gym.
How is your digestion with this new āline-up?ā Although I am still a flesh eater (grass-fed beef daily, all types of fish, chicken, free-range eggs) I have fairly recently added organic leafy greens in large quantities to every meal, and my digestion has been the best itās been in years.
[/quote]
CLUNK -
How much protein are you eating, if you donāt mind answering?
BTW, youāre new avatar is a HUGE improvement.
Youād think there could be one little corner of the internet where all the avatars are attractive, or even shirtless and handsome. Apparently not. 
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
In my own experience, dropping protein grams made no difference in my physiqueās appearance, or gym performance. Carbs and total caloric intake were the keys to keeping mass and energy in the gym.
How is your digestion with this new āline-up?ā Although I am still a flesh eater (grass-fed beef daily, all types of fish, chicken, free-range eggs) I have fairly recently added organic leafy greens in large quantities to every meal, and my digestion has been the best itās been in years.
[/quote]
CLUNK -
How much protein are you eating, if you donāt mind answering?
BTW, youāre new avatar is a HUGE improvement.
Youād think there could be one little corner of the internet where all the avatars are attractive, or even shirtless and handsome. Apparently not.
[/quote]
Thanks, Puff. I hesitate to post my real self, so ugly dudes, strange dogs, and slabs of meat will have to do for now.
My protein per day is in the 120 gm range. Sometimes less. There will even be times where I go for many hours without a protein source, and Iāll have a huge protein meal eventually in the day.
Brick mentioned Mike Mentzer, who was one of the first bodybuilders outspoken about the protein āscam.ā Mike said (paraphrasing) that the recommended daily protein dose and frequency are grossly overestimated for making progress. We would never have survived as a species if muscle tissue breakdown and catabolization occurred within a 2-hour stretch of fasting. The human body is highly adaptive. Muscle growth, of course, is a result of adaptation.
Im curious, do you have Greek ancestry by any chance?
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
In my own experience, dropping protein grams made no difference in my physiqueās appearance, or gym performance. Carbs and total caloric intake were the keys to keeping mass and energy in the gym.
How is your digestion with this new āline-up?ā Although I am still a flesh eater (grass-fed beef daily, all types of fish, chicken, free-range eggs) I have fairly recently added organic leafy greens in large quantities to every meal, and my digestion has been the best itās been in years.
[/quote]
CLUNK -
How much protein are you eating, if you donāt mind answering?
BTW, youāre new avatar is a HUGE improvement.
Youād think there could be one little corner of the internet where all the avatars are attractive, or even shirtless and handsome. Apparently not.
[/quote]
Thanks, Puff. I hesitate to post my real self, so ugly dudes, strange dogs, and slabs of meat will have to do for now.
My protein per day is in the 120 gm range. Sometimes less. There will even be times where I go for many hours without a protein source, and Iāll have a huge protein meal eventually in the day.
Brick mentioned Mike Mentzer, who was one of the first bodybuilders outspoken about the protein āscam.ā Mike said (paraphrasing) that the recommended daily protein dose and frequency are grossly overestimated for making progress. We would never have survived as a species if muscle tissue breakdown and catabolization occurred within a 2-hour stretch of fasting. The human body is highly adaptive. Muscle growth, of course, is a result of adaptation. [/quote]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Stumbled across this today:
Research Points To Mental Health Risks Associated With Meatless Diet
Lettuce is Ć¢??three times worse than baconā for emissions and vegetarian diets could be bad for environment
Hitler was a vegetarian, so this explains a lot.
(Yes, joking.)
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
Iāve read from some sources (most were articles on this site) that eating soy products is a great way to increase estrogen. Is that a concern for you? [/quote]
Iāve read that for years on bodybuilding websites. However I do not buy it. Phytoestrogens are not the same as estrogen. I get my estradiol checked every three or four months, so I can see if this actually holds water. There are vegans taking in more than 50 grams of soy protein a day with no ill effects, my close friend being one of them.
Same goes for thyroid function. If remember correctly, there was some study in a thyroidology journal which showed no negative effects on thyroid function. I am usually too lazy, and, to be honest, disinterested in shuffling studies around. There are other men who love doing that.
[quote]
I agree that the need for protein tends to be overblown, however if my memory serves me correctly (which it doesnāt always), people are typically told to take in 1.5 or more grams per pound of goal weight when they are specifially trying to gain weight and are āhard gainersā (I know there are a lot that would argue there is no such thing, just people who donāt eat enough). [/quote]
For a long time now, the general recommendation has been 0.8-1 g per pound. Iāve seen some trainers and nutritionists recommend or plan 1.5 to 2 grams per pound, and I believe that is an outrageous amount of protein. There has been some research (again, too lazy, but might look for it, and it has been referenced by Lonnie Lowery on this site before) in which it was shown that a measly 20 to 30 grams of protein three to five times a day is enough for muscle growth, irrespective of bodyweight. I think this research also showed steroid users who gained something like 13 pounds of LBM in a few months with this amount which is likely far lower than 1 gram per pound.
Many dietitians recommend 1.2 to 1.7 g/kg and in some cases, 2 g/kg, depending on how low total calories are.
Mike Mentor stated over and over that he would consume 60 to 80 grams of protein a day and he was an elite competitor, and I donāt have a reason to disbelieve him considering he didnāt have anything to gain from such a statement, nor was he some guy that liked to pull peopleās chain. Nasser el Sonbaty said he only took in about 100 grams a day and he was enormous. Again, I donāt see why heād say that; itās not shocking, and if anything would have sponsors not endorsing him with their products. I have an acquaintance that knew Nasser very well, and while she did say he liked to rile people up by saying dumb crap, I donāt see how that would be effective in this case.
[quote]
Is it that common to recommend so much protein when youāve already done a lot of work and are already at a certain point? What percentage of bodyweight would 100 to 120 grams of protein fall into for you? if you donāt mind me askingā¦ [/quote]
Around 0.5 to 0.6 g/lb. Yes, I think you can get away with less once youāve built the muscle with a bit more, but I no longer believe you need so damn much. Dave Tate reached an enormous size taking in less than a gram per pound, as he said in his articles dealing with his transformation with John Berardi.
[quote]
My logic is that if it is below 50% grams per pound for goal bodyweight, Iām thinking it might be a little low. Also, I am aware that youāre just testing it out. This is really more just for discussion purposes than anything else. Iām bored at work, haha. [/quote]
Thatās fine. I used to think that it would be too low, but, as I said, I donāt think itās so low that gains or maintenance canāt be had. Besides, 100 to 120 grams is more than enough for well being and healthāabsolutely nothing unhealthy with this amount.
[quote]
I feel like the same could be true in reverse. Iāve talked to a few vegans and seen some of their documentary videos that they like to show to sell people on their lifestyle and it always seemed to me like the videos and concepts could easily be getting pushed because they have something to sell, as well. Your thoughts?[/quote]
Of course. There are vegan books, clothing, shampoos, food, supplements, you name it. Thereās nothing wrong with selling things, including protein powder, some of which Iāve liked and used. Itās just I noticed the ones pushing insane protein amounts (like someone well all know of very well, but I will not mention, who does recommend unnecessary amounts) have protein powder to sell. Again, nothing wrong with the sales aspect of it. Itās just misleading about the nutrition recommendation. [/quote]
Well spoken. I am also one who doesnāt feel like searching through tons of research, either. Your reputation to know what youāre talking about has been pretty solidified to me through this thread.
This discussion is reaffirming beliefs that I had already been coming to realize, myself. Iāll always be a primarily meat and potatoes kind of person, but itās good to know that I donāt need to strain so much to get so much damn protein in every day.
So what would you say is a good daily protein amount? .6 g/lb? Even if youāre still trying to add muscle?