Transitioning to Vegetarianism

Off Topic
21

[quote]carbiduis wrote:
In my mind, animals like cows, pigs and chickens are here simply to be eaten. They are like plants with eyes. They convert things like grass into protien. They’re there to provide food for predatory animals.

I wonder, if we don’t eat chickens, pigs, and cows…what good are they to this earth? (Besides milk, in the case of cows and goats)[/quote]

I really don’t know how to respond to this post. And we clearly have different outlooks on this world. Even if if they were no use to us, as I said, the reason I am drastically cutting down or eliminating consumption of them is because I don’t want to put my money to feeding myself on animals that were tortured or died of the most horrible causes. It is the same reason why I do not want to buy anymore leather.

I also did not say I think there’s something wrong with eating them. I just don’t want them tortured for prolonged times and deprived of their needs while they are alive.

I also don’t wish to wear animals hide from animals who were skinned alive or had their spines fully removed or their necks broken by peoples bare hands while they were alive.

If someone is cruel, indifferent, and callous to the suffering of animals… that really says something.

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[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
What’s ironic about drive by zingers is that I said in my first post, “… obligation I have to be a civic-minded person… and treat other people with respect.” [/quote]

Because you are a respectful guy, I tried to not be blatantly offensive in my post. Also, surely it isn’t “ironic”, more of an odd coincidence.[/quote]

Alright, I’ll take that. Thanks.

23

There are many animals man has no intimate relation with, either for taking them as pets or for food or clothing. So I can’t understand your statement, “What use are they?” That is a purely materialistic question, not a spiritual one. And because my worldview is not purely materialistic, I can’t relate.

I say this with respect, although it might be offensive. You seem, from other posts on this forum, as a mostly economic and materialistic person. You’re focused on your personal gain and achievement, and anyone who wants to at least provide for their family and live a normal middle class life should be, even if such achievement is not monumental. But you come across as someone whose personal gain takes place above most other things. Hence why you might not relate to what I say here.

If I have you wrong, just tell me, and I will apologize for wrongfully assuming what you’re about.

24

You might want to check out Mike Mahler’s site as well. He’s a vegan and used to write articles for this site. I can’t speak for his dietary info as I’m not vegan but his training articles can be pretty good.

25

A couple of years ago I read The China Study by Campbell, and Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease by Esselstyn. Both give some fairly compelling research about the health benefits of going vegan.

You may have already read them. I know you’re a nutrition science person, but I don’t know how much of this kind of research was available or was part of your training. I know a lot of medical doctors don’t learn much about nutrition, specifically using diet to prevent disease.

Anyway, I didn’t “go vegan” but I did start looking for more vegan recipes. As you mentioned, those people really know how to cook veggies, and use things like lentils or quinoa which I didn’t grow up with.

Also, I’ve been impressed with some of the research with people who lift but are eating less and the 1 gram of protein per pound. I’m a woman, and not trying to be huge, but I think I do really well with more like .75 or .8 grams per pound myself.

I don’t plan to “go vegan”, but I do avoid processed meats like hot dogs, pepperoni, ham, etc…

Honestly, from a strictly longevity perspective, it makes sense to eat more vegetables, and probably a lot less protein.

26

[quote]dcb wrote:
You might want to check out Mike Mahler’s site as well. He’s a vegan and used to write articles for this site. I can’t speak for his dietary info as I’m not vegan but his training articles can be pretty good. [/quote]

Yeah, I remember he used to write for this site. I will check him out. Thanks.

27

Brick - I had to go back to a thread from the nutrition forum a couple of years ago, but this is me talking about macros, and thinking about lowering protein here. This is from strictly a muscle gain/ maintenance perspective. Not talking about longevity or animal rights or anything.

"… I read a couple of articles by Borge Fagerli aka Blade. I was surprised to see him say that he believes the protein requirement for building and maintaining muscle may be more like 1.5 - 2 g per kg BW. That’s kg, not lbs. So, for a woman of my size, the protein requirement would be 73 - 98 g per day.

It’s a bit confusing though, because in another article about Female Fitness Contest Prep, he was recommending pro at closer to the traditional BBing guidelines. Of course, this is a contest prep diet. He’s not talking about maintenance.

Just a short excerpt here…

"Now for the macronutrient ratio management. I know low carb diets are popular among women, but in my experience this isn’t a good long term strategy. I’ve successfully “reprogrammed” several girls from low to higher carbs, and the contest prep is a lot easier or at least more predictable. The downside can be more variable hunger levels and energy, but if they get leaner and stay fuller it’s worth it.

Even though insulin sensitivity is generally lower in women and you don’t handle carbs as well as guys do, the lower calories for a 100-120 lbs fitness or bikini girl automatically takes care of that. I don’t think protein should be set higher than maybe 1.3g per lbs of body weight and I start with 1g per lbs while carbs and calories are still high. This is purely observational but too much protein in the ranges commonly prescribed for fat loss diets (1.5g/lbs ) seem to lead to poorer digestion, more bloating and water retention, and also compromises carb intake."

For anyone who is interested in reading the whole thing, look for Borge Fagerli, Female Fitness Contest Prep. It’s one of the most comprehensive articles about training for females I’ve seen. Really, really nice. I wish he wrote more.

The article about rethinking protein is called The Final Word on Protein (?)

28

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
A couple of years ago I read The China Study by Campbell, and Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease by Esselstyn. Both give some fairly compelling research about the health benefits of going vegan.

You may have already read them. I know you’re a nutrition science person, but I don’t know how much of this kind of research was available or was part of your training. I know a lot of medical doctors don’t learn much about nutrition, specifically using diet to prevent disease.

Anyway, I didn’t “go vegan” but I did start looking for more vegan recipes. As you mentioned, those people really know how to cook veggies, and use things like lentils or quinoa which I didn’t grow up with.

Also, I’ve been impressed with some of the research with people who lift but are eating less and the 1 gram of protein per pound. I’m a woman, and not trying to be huge, but I think I do really well with more like .75 or .8 grams per pound myself.

I don’t plan to “go vegan”, but I do avoid processed meats like hot dogs, pepperoni, ham, etc…

Honestly, from a strictly longevity perspective, it makes sense to eat more vegetables, and probably a lot less protein.
[/quote]

Thanks. The American Dietetics Association’s (now Academy or Nutrition and Dietetics or AND) position statement is here:

We learned a bit about vegetarian and vegan diets.

29

I think you are making a very commendable decision. It is always refreshing to see people taking responsibility for their actions and thinking about how their choices effect the world around them.

I was a vegetarian for about 8 years, but recently took up eating some fish. Here are some observations that might be useful for you:

  • I can’t comment on how vegetarianism effected my muscle building, as I gave up meat before taking up lifting. That said, I was able to go from 120 lbs at 5’7" to 185 lbs in about 3 years without meat so its not like I’ve been unable to add muscle. These are post-pubertal weight gains that can’t be attributed to normal growth and development.

  • Early on, I relied fairly heavily on whey protein and processed “meat substitutes” for my protein intake. Eventually, my digestive system paid the price. I try to keep my whey intake to 1-2 scoops a day now and save fake meet for rare occasions (like today – there will be a Tofurkey in my oven in a few hours).

  • From a lifestyle perspective, the biggest difficulty came when eating in social settings. At first I enjoyed talking about the choice I had made and my reasons for doing it, but after a few years you get sick of going to bat for vegetarianism and answering the same comments and laughing off the same lame jokes and snide remarks. I eventually started using the phrasing “I don’t eat meat” whenever people asked about it, as the word “vegetarian” is what people seem to react to and have the most questions about.

  • I was convinced to start eating fish by a buddy of mine with an interest in neuroscience who is convinced that fish don’t feel pain. I wrote that claim off for years at it seems patently ridiculous, but apparently there are some respected neuroscientists who believe it for reasons that I can’t explain to you articulately. Also, I got tired of eating at the same restaurants when I went out.

  • Since reintroducing fish to my diet, I DO feel a bit healthier overall. It may be because of the Omega 3s or another nutrient that I haven’t identified, but the change is noticeable. That said, I’ve made many changes during the past year (including treating my hypothyroidism) that might have more to do with how I feel than the fish does. I’ll likely give it up again in the future and see if there is any change.

Good luck on your journey, and congratulations for taking steps towards living in a way that you feel happy and comfortable with.

30

If it makes you happy and doesn’t harm anyone (including yourself), do it. Just don’t be the stereotypical vegetarian/vegan guy who pushes his views onto everyone else when it’s not welcomed (not saying you are). It’s an individual preference and shouldn’t be pushed on people, much like religion/politics/Crossfit. Similarly you will need to make your own accommodations to support your lifestyle. 5% of the population are “vegetarians” (most are pretty bad ones), and even less are vegans, so don’t expect people to go out of their way to suit your preferences. Bring your own salad to BBQ’s.

I say all this with friendly intentions. Basically just realise the consequences of your decision and how it impacts others and adjust accordingly. The main reason veganism gets hate is not because of its ethical/ideological position but because a lot of people going on about it are douchebags.

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Thanks for more replies people.

I will be back tonight or tomorrow to reply. I have to get a work out in and then go to celebrate Thanksgiving.

Happy Thanksgiving to all here.

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[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Thanks for more replies people.

I will be back tonight or tomorrow to reply. I have to get a work out in and then go to celebrate Thanksgiving.

Happy Thanksgiving to all here. [/quote]

You first mentioned you are slowly transitioning to vegetarianism. Does this mean there is a chance you will have turkey today?

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[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Thanks for more replies people.

I will be back tonight or tomorrow to reply. I have to get a work out in and then go to celebrate Thanksgiving.

Happy Thanksgiving to all here. [/quote]

You first mentioned you are slowly transitioning to vegetarianism. Does this mean there is a chance you will have turkey today?[/quote]

Tofurkey instead. I bought it last night.

34

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
There are many animals man has no intimate relation with, either for taking them as pets or for food or clothing. So I can’t understand your statement, “What use are they?” That is a purely materialistic question, not a spiritual one. And because my worldview is not purely materialistic, I can’t relate.

I say this with respect, although it might be offensive. You seem, from other posts on this forum, as a mostly economic and materialistic person. You’re focused on your personal gain and achievement, and anyone who wants to at least provide for their family and live a normal middle class life should be, even if such achievement is not monumental. But you come across as someone whose personal gain takes place above most other things. Hence why you might not relate to what I say here.

If I have you wrong, just tell me, and I will apologize for wrongfully assuming what you’re about. [/quote]

Spot on, I’m here for me and my (future) family. I’m here to do the best for myself. It’s a dog eat dog world, right? I don’t believe in any sort of afterlife, i guess im not that spiritual. I do however understand that everyone is different and I’m usually off-base and wierd, but thats WHO I am, my beleiefs make perfect sense in my head.

My goals are often materialistic, but hey;

You only thrive once.

35

Not sure how close it relates to the topic of this thread, but on tue topic of processed meats;

A year ago my coworker got colon cancer, he had surgey and was hack to normal in about 2-3mo. He ate arbys constantly, smoked and was overweight. But the reason that he got cancer according to him was “the stress of our work environment”…

So here he is, less than a year after, eating arbys several times a week, smoking, and back to his overweight self again. Since seeing this unfold, I am a pretty big believer that processed meats can lead to colon cancer (as numerous studies have shown).

36

[quote]carbiduis wrote:
So here he is, less than a year after, eating arbys several times a week, smoking, and back to his overweight self again. Since seeing this unfold, I am a pretty big believer that processed meats can lead to colon cancer (as numerous studies have shown).[/quote]

Is it the processed meats, or is it that people who eat processed meats also smoke, consume few vegetables that aren’t potatos, consume large amounts of alcohol, are overweight, etc?

I think our perspective of true risk factors is skewed when we can look at an overweight guy who smokes with an indeterminate family history and we think 4 oz a day of cured roast beef is what’s given him cancer…

37

About less protein for people who are into lifting… I was saying I think I can do pretty well on 73-98 grams of pro per day, instead of 110-115 grams, which is the 1 pound per BW recommendation. Talking about muscle and strength athletes here.

BUT, the people like Esselstyn and Campell would bring protein totals down closer to 10 grams per day. Yeah. WAY lower.

They’d also say that as far as health and longevity go, that my subtle changes aren’t nearly enough to reap the health benefits.

38

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
If it is for ethical reasons why not go full blown vegan and will you stop using all animal products?

What about all the poor animals being killed harvesting crops? Do they not matter? All the pesticides? Even if you go organic, organic farming uses animal manure for fertility. etc. etc.[/quote]

Not sure if the above is serious or not so I’ll defer on assuming- to those who do use this logic, as a quick PSA it’s an epic logical fallacy and makes the user look like a dunce.

OP- I’ve lutked for close to a decade (trying to post more these days) but good for you. I eat about 80% of my meals vegetarian for somewhat similar reasons. I don’t eschew all meat as I think there are benefits to consumption (I eat oysters and organ meats) and sometimes I feel like eating a steak or whatever and don’t want to label myself a “vegetarian” and preclude doing what I want. I also try to keep away from too much material shit and try to live simply and mindfully. Much happier now than when I was going for shiny shit or trying to impress other people.

39

[quote]Nards wrote:
There’s something telling about how people respond to someone who has chosen to become vegetarian or vegan.

They then try to find flaws in what you’re doing. You still use wood products? Well animals are used to haul the logs in some parts of the world or some shit so you’re a hypocrite.

Don’t listen to them. You’re doing a good thing that I wish I had the strength to do.[/quote]

Very much this. Whatever you decide to do, I respect you for at least considering the options and consequences.

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
What about all the poor animals being killed harvesting crops? Do they not matter? All the pesticides? Even if you go organic, organic farming uses animal manure for fertility. Animal manures that come primarily from confined animals, raised for meat or eggs.[/quote]

It takes several pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef (and let’s not fool ourselves here, the majority of farm animals are fed wheat, corn, and soy). So even if we only consider the field animals being killed, vegans stil have LESS “blood on their hands”. Nothing’s perfect but you can always try to minimise factors.

[quote]Iron Condor wrote:
Just don’t be the stereotypical vegetarian/vegan guy who pushes his views onto everyone else when it’s not welcomed (not saying you are).[/quote]

Funny - I see way more omnivores bashing vegans than the other way around, and I know plenty of vegans.

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For the informational side…

Obviously, the difference between vegetarianism and veganism will be a big one in terms of diet. If you choose the former (which I have), eggs, cottage cheese and whey are fair game and should make a high protein diet easy.

If you choose to go the vegan route, google “making the vegan diet work” by Mike Mahler. Also google “Mac Danzig diet”.

Patrik Baboumian has been mentioned before. I’ve actually met him several times - super laid back and helpful guy, as wide as a barn door and a beast when he gets his hands on the barbell. He recently published a vegan recipe book called “Vrebellion” - just a caveat, he used Tofu quite extensively, which may be an issue depending on your stance on soy.

Lastly, our very own Chris Colucci wrote a few blog posts titled “life without my meat” a few years ago. Google them as well.