Transitioning to Vegetarianism

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]CLUNK wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Hitler was a vegetarian, so this explains a lot.

(Yes, joking.)[/quote]

Godwin’s Law
[/quote]

Except in this case, accurate. Hitler WAS a vegetarian. He was also nice to dogs.

But, yes, completely irrelevant. Just fun to gig Brickhead with it, as I knew he was also Jewish.

FWIW, in undergrad I worked in the Maseeh Hall (? can’t remember), which was the kosher food cafeteria at MIT because I had zero money (and unlike the idiot students of today, declined to go into debt for my education). Most of the meals were vegetarian, simply because kosher meat is expensive.

This attracted lots of other students who were just vegetarian and not necessarily Jewish.

Anyway, a lot them were really nice, and a lot were assholes who talked down to me because they assumed I was a “mere” cafeteria worker (or they talked down because I was poor and not afraid to work with my hands).

Standing in the service line also gave me a fair amount of time to watch people. I further observed the same people about campus (they generally didn’t recognize me without my hairnet and apron).

Anyway, a fair plurality of vegetarians are hyper-sensitive to animals, but really nasty to humans. Probably slightly more than the general population.

I would have thought it to be the opposite (and it sometimes is).

I developed a theory that they are attempting to compensate for being assholes to humans by being overly kind to animals.

(That, or people are just crappy to people in food service, and I mainly had a sample of vegetarians.)[/quote]

About moral decision making. So many people see their environmentalism or their veganism as a moral and ethical choice, and maybe it is. Remember that study about people who bought organic foods thinking they were more ethical than other people? They were also more judgmental as I recall. There were headlines with something about how shopping at Wholefoods can make you a jerk.

Maybe your environmentalism causes you to buy a Prius, bring your own bags to the market, and put solar panels on your house. Fine. You may, or may not feel superior to the people who aren’t doing these things. It’s especially true for things that we tend to attach a lot of emotion to. There’s always the lean, muscular guy who is looking at the fatty next door, ordering pizza again… :wink: I guess we all have to be aware of these things. Humans are strange. We’re sometimes motivated by a desire to signal to the other people that we are “in the club.” My dog is a rescue… That kind of thing.

BTW, the thankless, menial jobs in our youth build character. I want my kids to know that they are not “too good” to do any job. I cared for disabled adults when I was in college, changing diapers, the whole thing.

Brick - You know I like ya. I’m not assuming you have some strange motives or will turn into a jerk, or some Portlandia character. :slight_smile: Jewbacca’s post just made me think about some of this. Sometimes I try to be introspective about why I do the things I do.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I developed a theory that they are attempting to compensate for being assholes to humans by being overly kind to animals.
[/quote]

it’s called The Negative Relief State Model

[quote] Powerpuff wrote:

Brick - You know I like ya. I’m not assuming you have some strange motives or will turn into a jerk, or some Portlandia character. :slight_smile: Jewbacca’s post just made me think about some of this. Sometimes I try to be introspective about why I do the things I do.
[/quote]

Thanks! :slight_smile:

I can just say here why I am doing this, if I did not touch upon it exactly earlier.

  1. I have seen and learned about the insane cruelty and interference with animals’ nature and ways of life in modern farming and circuses, zoos, aquariums, and marine parks such as Seaworld. Although I cannot save animals, I don’t want to pay into this.

  2. I have an option. Even if hunting was available to me, I have an option in this day and age. I can go to the grocery store and feed myself without taking out an animal. If hunting was necessary to live, then I would do it. No, if I one day am in some Walking Dead-style apocalyptic America, I am not staying vegan; I will be eating whatever there is to stay alive.

  3. I don’t care who remains a meat eater and it doesn’t even cross my mind, even when I am sitting across from one at a dining table. This is for me; that’s it. It’s not a lifelong pledge, although it this way of eating might last that long. And I believe it is near impossible or impossible to be a perfect vegan in this day and age considering how much our technology involves animal products. Am I really going to not buy some vegan chocolate because it was produced in the same factory that produces dairy or eggs containing products and thereby I might get a slight speckle of milk dust in my mouth? No.

I’ll be back (if anyone is interested, lol). Wifey intensely dislikes fitness forum posting and she knows I am doing so. Hence the abrupt cutoffs in my posts as of late. :slight_smile:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I developed a theory that they are attempting to compensate for being assholes to humans by being overly kind to animals.
[/quote]

it’s called The Negative Relief State Model[/quote]

Thanks. And here I was thinking I was observing something novel.

Nice to know it’s real, has a name, and I was not just being paranoid.

From my other job as a bartender (and being the jacked insecure guy who hangs back and doesn’t talk to anyone, not to mention being married and a dad at that point in my life), I also observed, akin to Dian Fossey (the gorilla lady), the strategies for picking up blue collar Irish/American girls; smart, but intensely insecure Boston U or Boston C girls (who were often vegetarians, BTW); and unbelievably wound up Asian girls at Harvard.

(No chapter is needed for MIT girls, you simply have to be unforgivably male, but clean, and pay attention to them.)

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

  1. I have seen and learned about the insane cruelty and interference with animals’ nature and ways of life in modern farming and circuses, zoos, aquariums, and marine parks such as Seaworld. Although I cannot save animals, I don’t want to pay into this.
    [/quote]

Damn good post overall.

Although I am still a carnivore (only buying humanely treated free-range beef), we’ve long since stopped supporting and frequenting the institutions you’ve mentioned.

I can’t always account for the sources of the meat we order when dining out on occasion, but I don’t stress over such rare instances.

I also don’t hold any political/social superiority complexes over vegans or vegetarians. I have several friends who partake in those lifestyles, and their choices are indeed theirs. My only issue is when their choices are misguided on the basis of false or misleading information, and they end up not fully understanding how their decisions affect their own good health, as well as pulling them away from what they perceived as a goal toward being humane.

One of the quirks of some of them is the fact that, although they profess to be vegetarian/vegan and do not consume animal flesh, they also rarely consume actual vegetables! Breads, cereals, processed grains, pasta, and potatoes make up the bulk of their diets (one friend eats a lot of cheese). They look unhealthy, weak, pale, and overweight. I’ve long since stopped trying to offer healthy advice, because they’re so sensitive and emotionally charged over their decisions. I’ve also observed a hypersensitivity to what would be considered normal life challenges, and I attribute this to being hormonally imbalanced as a result of their poor dietary choices.

Sorry the long post. I know I’m not describing you, Brick. Far from it. As I’ve said before, you’re one of the most sane and methodical posters on this forum.

[quote]CLUNK wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

  1. I have seen and learned about the insane cruelty and interference with animals’ nature and ways of life in modern farming and circuses, zoos, aquariums, and marine parks such as Seaworld. Although I cannot save animals, I don’t want to pay into this.
    [/quote]

Damn good post overall.

Although I am still a carnivore (only buying humanely treated free-range beef), we’ve long since stopped supporting and frequenting the institutions you’ve mentioned.

I can’t always account for the sources of the meat we order when dining out on occasion, but I don’t stress over such rare instances.

I also don’t hold any political/social superiority complexes over vegans or vegetarians. I have several friends who partake in those lifestyles, and their choices are indeed theirs. My only issue is when their choices are misguided on the basis of false or misleading information, and they end up not fully understanding how their decisions affect their own good health, as well as pulling them away from what they perceived as a goal toward being humane.

One of the quirks of some of them is the fact that, although they profess to be vegetarian/vegan and do not consume animal flesh, they also rarely consume actual vegetables! Breads, cereals, processed grains, pasta, and potatoes make up the bulk of their diets (one friend eats a lot of cheese). They look unhealthy, weak, pale, and overweight. I’ve long since stopped trying to offer healthy advice, because they’re so sensitive and emotionally charged over their decisions. I’ve also observed a hypersensitivity to what would be considered normal life challenges, and I attribute this to being hormonally imbalanced as a result of their poor dietary choices.

Sorry the long post. I know I’m not describing you, Brick. Far from it. As I’ve said before, you’re one of the most sane and methodical posters on this forum. [/quote]

Thanks! I like your posts too and consider you a very genuine, good guy too.

Many people put down plant based eating, saying they tried and then got sick. Like in two months of doing it. :slight_smile: Must have been a pretty shitty diet to ACTUALLY become ill in two months. One guy on an MMA forum said he tried veganism for a DAY–which to him was eating only cereal and fruit all day–and then quit because he felt like he was dying. Unless I ate several POUNDS of fruit for a day, I’d feel pretty lousy from only cereal and a few servings of fruit too.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]CLUNK wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

  1. I have seen and learned about the insane cruelty and interference with animals’ nature and ways of life in modern farming and circuses, zoos, aquariums, and marine parks such as Seaworld. Although I cannot save animals, I don’t want to pay into this.
    [/quote]

Damn good post overall.

Although I am still a carnivore (only buying humanely treated free-range beef), we’ve long since stopped supporting and frequenting the institutions you’ve mentioned.

I can’t always account for the sources of the meat we order when dining out on occasion, but I don’t stress over such rare instances.

I also don’t hold any political/social superiority complexes over vegans or vegetarians. I have several friends who partake in those lifestyles, and their choices are indeed theirs. My only issue is when their choices are misguided on the basis of false or misleading information, and they end up not fully understanding how their decisions affect their own good health, as well as pulling them away from what they perceived as a goal toward being humane.

One of the quirks of some of them is the fact that, although they profess to be vegetarian/vegan and do not consume animal flesh, they also rarely consume actual vegetables! Breads, cereals, processed grains, pasta, and potatoes make up the bulk of their diets (one friend eats a lot of cheese). They look unhealthy, weak, pale, and overweight. I’ve long since stopped trying to offer healthy advice, because they’re so sensitive and emotionally charged over their decisions. I’ve also observed a hypersensitivity to what would be considered normal life challenges, and I attribute this to being hormonally imbalanced as a result of their poor dietary choices.

Sorry the long post. I know I’m not describing you, Brick. Far from it. As I’ve said before, you’re one of the most sane and methodical posters on this forum. [/quote]

Thanks! I like your posts too and consider you a very genuine, good guy too.

Many people put down plant based eating, saying they tried and then got sick. Like in two months of doing it. :slight_smile: Must have been a pretty shitty diet to ACTUALLY become ill in two months. One guy on an MMA forum said he tried veganism for a DAY–which to him was eating only cereal and fruit all day–and then quit because he felt like he was dying. Unless I ate several POUNDS of fruit for a day, I’d feel pretty lousy from only cereal and a few servings of fruit too. [/quote]

Heh heh! Sounds like most of that reaction is in their heads!
However, there may be some truth to that for some.
I’ve read testimonials, which experts have backed up, stating that when a person makes sudden drastic healthful changes in what they’re consuming, the body goes through a period of “dying off” (if I remember the term correctly). Apparently it’s the period where the body is releasing toxins rapidly, and the symptoms can sometimes be very severe, as if the person were becoming ill. Often that person their illness is the result of changing diets, and quickly revert back to their former unhealthy diet, instead of sticking with the program and plowing through until the symptoms dissipate.

[quote]CLUNK wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]CLUNK wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

  1. I have seen and learned about the insane cruelty and interference with animals’ nature and ways of life in modern farming and circuses, zoos, aquariums, and marine parks such as Seaworld. Although I cannot save animals, I don’t want to pay into this.
    [/quote]

Damn good post overall.

Although I am still a carnivore (only buying humanely treated free-range beef), we’ve long since stopped supporting and frequenting the institutions you’ve mentioned.

I can’t always account for the sources of the meat we order when dining out on occasion, but I don’t stress over such rare instances.

I also don’t hold any political/social superiority complexes over vegans or vegetarians. I have several friends who partake in those lifestyles, and their choices are indeed theirs. My only issue is when their choices are misguided on the basis of false or misleading information, and they end up not fully understanding how their decisions affect their own good health, as well as pulling them away from what they perceived as a goal toward being humane.

One of the quirks of some of them is the fact that, although they profess to be vegetarian/vegan and do not consume animal flesh, they also rarely consume actual vegetables! Breads, cereals, processed grains, pasta, and potatoes make up the bulk of their diets (one friend eats a lot of cheese). They look unhealthy, weak, pale, and overweight. I’ve long since stopped trying to offer healthy advice, because they’re so sensitive and emotionally charged over their decisions. I’ve also observed a hypersensitivity to what would be considered normal life challenges, and I attribute this to being hormonally imbalanced as a result of their poor dietary choices.

Sorry the long post. I know I’m not describing you, Brick. Far from it. As I’ve said before, you’re one of the most sane and methodical posters on this forum. [/quote]

Thanks! I like your posts too and consider you a very genuine, good guy too.

Many people put down plant based eating, saying they tried and then got sick. Like in two months of doing it. :slight_smile: Must have been a pretty shitty diet to ACTUALLY become ill in two months. One guy on an MMA forum said he tried veganism for a DAY–which to him was eating only cereal and fruit all day–and then quit because he felt like he was dying. Unless I ate several POUNDS of fruit for a day, I’d feel pretty lousy from only cereal and a few servings of fruit too. [/quote]

Heh heh! Sounds like most of that reaction is in their heads!
However, there may be some truth to that for some.
I’ve read testimonials, which experts have backed up, stating that when a person makes sudden drastic healthful changes in what they’re consuming, the body goes through a period of “dying off” (if I remember the term correctly). Apparently it’s the period where the body is releasing toxins rapidly, and the symptoms can sometimes be very severe, as if the person were becoming ill. Often that person their illness is the result of changing diets, and quickly revert back to their former unhealthy diet, instead of sticking with the program and plowing through until the symptoms dissipate.
[/quote]
No clunk I do not agree, the human body is way to resilient. You have people living solely on McDonalds for years and it takes a long time to have adverse effects.

More than likely the drop in the amount of fat/carb combination leaves people “feeling” off when they actually start eating clean. Like taking someone who has been eating 7K Kcal a day down to 1500, they are not dying they just feel like shit from the drop in kcal.

Brick my only question man is; What you are going through is it a “season” in life or is this a life changing event? I believe after all these years on here you have shown to be a very strong willed and passionate person, with honesty and virtue. But are you searching for something or does this feel like a calling?

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

No clunk I do not agree, the human body is way to resilient. You have people living solely on McDonalds for years and it takes a long time to have adverse effects.

More than likely the drop in the amount of fat/carb combination leaves people “feeling” off when they actually start eating clean. Like taking someone who has been eating 7K Kcal a day down to 1500, they are not dying they just feel like shit from the drop in kcal.
[/quote]

My point was, these people have eaten badly for so long, and have allowed toxins to build up in the body. No adverse reaction there because of the slow, gradual build-up. It’s only when they suddenly make radical dietary changes for the better that the body uses those “new” nutrients to begin eliminating the toxins. Sure, the macros you mentioned most likely have some impact on the adverse way these people often feel when new to the program, but the “dying off” (as they call it) is only a term used to describe how it feels, not an actual event where the body is dying.

[quote]CLUNK wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

No clunk I do not agree, the human body is way to resilient. You have people living solely on McDonalds for years and it takes a long time to have adverse effects.

More than likely the drop in the amount of fat/carb combination leaves people “feeling” off when they actually start eating clean. Like taking someone who has been eating 7K Kcal a day down to 1500, they are not dying they just feel like shit from the drop in kcal.
[/quote]

My point was, these people have eaten badly for so long, and have allowed toxins to build up in the body. No adverse reaction there because of the slow, gradual build-up. It’s only when they suddenly make radical dietary changes for the better that the body uses those “new” nutrients to begin eliminating the toxins. Sure, the macros you mentioned most likely have some impact on the adverse way these people often feel when new to the program, but the “dying off” (as they call it) is only a term used to describe how it feels, not an actual event where the body is dying.
[/quote]
No I get it man, my point was this is more mental than physical I believe.

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]CLUNK wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]CLUNK wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

  1. I have seen and learned about the insane cruelty and interference with animals’ nature and ways of life in modern farming and circuses, zoos, aquariums, and marine parks such as Seaworld. Although I cannot save animals, I don’t want to pay into this.
    [/quote]

Damn good post overall.

Although I am still a carnivore (only buying humanely treated free-range beef), we’ve long since stopped supporting and frequenting the institutions you’ve mentioned.

I can’t always account for the sources of the meat we order when dining out on occasion, but I don’t stress over such rare instances.

I also don’t hold any political/social superiority complexes over vegans or vegetarians. I have several friends who partake in those lifestyles, and their choices are indeed theirs. My only issue is when their choices are misguided on the basis of false or misleading information, and they end up not fully understanding how their decisions affect their own good health, as well as pulling them away from what they perceived as a goal toward being humane.

One of the quirks of some of them is the fact that, although they profess to be vegetarian/vegan and do not consume animal flesh, they also rarely consume actual vegetables! Breads, cereals, processed grains, pasta, and potatoes make up the bulk of their diets (one friend eats a lot of cheese). They look unhealthy, weak, pale, and overweight. I’ve long since stopped trying to offer healthy advice, because they’re so sensitive and emotionally charged over their decisions. I’ve also observed a hypersensitivity to what would be considered normal life challenges, and I attribute this to being hormonally imbalanced as a result of their poor dietary choices.

Sorry the long post. I know I’m not describing you, Brick. Far from it. As I’ve said before, you’re one of the most sane and methodical posters on this forum. [/quote]

Thanks! I like your posts too and consider you a very genuine, good guy too.

Many people put down plant based eating, saying they tried and then got sick. Like in two months of doing it. :slight_smile: Must have been a pretty shitty diet to ACTUALLY become ill in two months. One guy on an MMA forum said he tried veganism for a DAY–which to him was eating only cereal and fruit all day–and then quit because he felt like he was dying. Unless I ate several POUNDS of fruit for a day, I’d feel pretty lousy from only cereal and a few servings of fruit too. [/quote]

Heh heh! Sounds like most of that reaction is in their heads!
However, there may be some truth to that for some.
I’ve read testimonials, which experts have backed up, stating that when a person makes sudden drastic healthful changes in what they’re consuming, the body goes through a period of “dying off” (if I remember the term correctly). Apparently it’s the period where the body is releasing toxins rapidly, and the symptoms can sometimes be very severe, as if the person were becoming ill. Often that person their illness is the result of changing diets, and quickly revert back to their former unhealthy diet, instead of sticking with the program and plowing through until the symptoms dissipate.
[/quote]
No clunk I do not agree, the human body is way to resilient. You have people living solely on McDonalds for years and it takes a long time to have adverse effects.

More than likely the drop in the amount of fat/carb combination leaves people “feeling” off when they actually start eating clean. Like taking someone who has been eating 7K Kcal a day down to 1500, they are not dying they just feel like shit from the drop in kcal.

Brick my only question man is; What you are going through is it a “season” in life or is this a life changing event? I believe after all these years on here you have shown to be a very strong willed and passionate person, with honesty and virtue. But are you searching for something or does this feel like a calling? [/quote]

Hey, thanks for the post and the compliments. I just saw it now. I’m gonna try to respond tonight or tomorrow afternoon.

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]CLUNK wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

No clunk I do not agree, the human body is way to resilient. You have people living solely on McDonalds for years and it takes a long time to have adverse effects.

More than likely the drop in the amount of fat/carb combination leaves people “feeling” off when they actually start eating clean. Like taking someone who has been eating 7K Kcal a day down to 1500, they are not dying they just feel like shit from the drop in kcal.
[/quote]

My point was, these people have eaten badly for so long, and have allowed toxins to build up in the body. No adverse reaction there because of the slow, gradual build-up. It’s only when they suddenly make radical dietary changes for the better that the body uses those “new” nutrients to begin eliminating the toxins. Sure, the macros you mentioned most likely have some impact on the adverse way these people often feel when new to the program, but the “dying off” (as they call it) is only a term used to describe how it feels, not an actual event where the body is dying.
[/quote]
No I get it man, my point was this is more mental than physical I believe. [/quote]

Ah, I see! Yes, I would agree. I know so many people who cannot deal with a minor twinge of pain, and carry pain relievers with them wherever they go.
Probably why so many new gym memberships quit after a few sessions. They just can’t deal with sore muscles.

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
Brick my only question man is; What you are going through is it a “season” in life or is this a life changing event? [/quote]

I say it’s life changing because I’ve had to drastically change the way I eat. I mean, even when I was eating meat several times daily, I was eating nearly all of what I do now, just in different amounts: rice, quinoa, and other grains, root veggies like potatoes and yucca, veggies, fruits, nuts, and seeds. I never consumed soy products at all though. But now I refrain from eating dairy and meat, with the occasional eggs I get from the urban farm around the corner from me. Most days I am strict vegan.

I find it easy to go vegan with food prep and choices, but I think having to avoid things that are so common in so many foods is life changing, considering now I think about it. Just today at work for holiday events I did not have any items with chocolate nor did I have any of the other stuff served except for salad and fruits and some vegetarian sushi rolls. I brought my own lunch to work.

What else is life changing is realizing the degree and amount of animal cruelty and death that I was unaware of before.

As far back as about five or six years old I developed an interest in animals. My mom used to order National Geographic magazines for me-not the sophisticated issues for adults dealing with heavy world matters, but the ones for kids with the big spreads and close-ups of different animals in every issue. One issue would be about reptiles, another about amphibians, another about fish, and so on. As I got older, I lost interest and did not think much about animals up until about four years ago, when I met my wife and her dog, who now lives with both of us.

As I said, I can’t say it’s a lifelong pledge, but with what I know now, I rather stay away from most animal products.

[quote]

I believe after all these years on here you have shown to be a very strong willed and passionate person, with honesty and virtue. But are you searching for something or does this feel like a calling? [/quote]

Thanks!

It’s actually much simpler than finding something. I simply got disgusted with what I learned about how we treat animals on farms, how much we eat them, and how much we mistreat them. I want to cut down on how much I pay into that.

I don’t think now’s the time, at 36 years old, to search for something, lol. I’ve changed dramatically in the past four years, since meeting my wife, but I think the time for searching for something has passed on, especially that I want a kid ASAP.

With that said, and like I said before, I was a very naive and self-centered person for much of my life. I don’t mean self-centered as in narcissistic or annoying or uncaring. I mean self-centered as in not paying much attention to the world around me besides my immediate surroundings. So I guess the animal welfare thing is connected with what I’ve learned about the world.

If you enjoy gains its bad idea

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
If you enjoy gains its bad idea[/quote]

Great post.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
If you enjoy gains its bad idea[/quote]

Great post. [/quote]

I agree. The elegance and eloquence of his argument is stunning.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
Brick my only question man is; What you are going through is it a “season” in life or is this a life changing event? [/quote]

I say it’s life changing because I’ve had to drastically change the way I eat. I mean, even when I was eating meat several times daily, I was eating nearly all of what I do now, just in different amounts: rice, quinoa, and other grains, root veggies like potatoes and yucca, veggies, fruits, nuts, and seeds. I never consumed soy products at all though. But now I refrain from eating dairy and meat, with the occasional eggs I get from the urban farm around the corner from me. Most days I am strict vegan.

I find it easy to go vegan with food prep and choices, but I think having to avoid things that are so common in so many foods is life changing, considering now I think about it. Just today at work for holiday events I did not have any items with chocolate nor did I have any of the other stuff served except for salad and fruits and some vegetarian sushi rolls. I brought my own lunch to work.

What else is life changing is realizing the degree and amount of animal cruelty and death that I was unaware of before.

As far back as about five or six years old I developed an interest in animals. My mom used to order National Geographic magazines for me-not the sophisticated issues for adults dealing with heavy world matters, but the ones for kids with the big spreads and close-ups of different animals in every issue. One issue would be about reptiles, another about amphibians, another about fish, and so on. As I got older, I lost interest and did not think much about animals up until about four years ago, when I met my wife and her dog, who now lives with both of us.

As I said, I can’t say it’s a lifelong pledge, but with what I know now, I rather stay away from most animal products.

[quote]

I believe after all these years on here you have shown to be a very strong willed and passionate person, with honesty and virtue. But are you searching for something or does this feel like a calling? [/quote]

Thanks!

It’s actually much simpler than finding something. I simply got disgusted with what I learned about how we treat animals on farms, how much we eat them, and how much we mistreat them. I want to cut down on how much I pay into that.

I don’t think now’s the time, at 36 years old, to search for something, lol. I’ve changed dramatically in the past four years, since meeting my wife, but I think the time for searching for something has passed on, especially that I want a kid ASAP.

With that said, and like I said before, I was a very naive and self-centered person for much of my life. I don’t mean self-centered as in narcissistic or annoying or uncaring. I mean self-centered as in not paying much attention to the world around me besides my immediate surroundings. So I guess the animal welfare thing is connected with what I’ve learned about the world. [/quote]
Cool, thanks for the response. Good luck my friend on having a child, that will also change your life and I believe for the better.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]CLUNK wrote:

My point was, these people…have allowed toxins to build up in the body…

[/quote]

My understanding is this has been debunked.[/quote]

Google The Herxheimer Reaction

Brick, this thread is a bit long and I will read it eventually but suffice to say I may be coming around to the same conclusions as you. I have no illusions any more of looking like a pro BBer or squatting 500x10 (and that more protein is the answer to my prayers) and I don’t think eliminating or substantially reducing my intake of animal products will make my gains evaporate (although if it was a net positive for the animal lives involved I don’t think I’d really care any more if I lost 10 pounds of muscle)

However most of my meals contain at least some animal products. Meat at least once a day, eggs at least once a day, and cottage cheese at least once a day.

Can you give me a quick over view of the dietary choices you made and how your gym and physique results were impacted, if at all? Any other insights you care to share would be welcome. You may have addressed this already, but as I said I havent had time to go through the whole thread.

Happy new years, brother.