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Trans-Woman Breaks Woman's British DL Record with 260kg Pull


#61

Pretty much summed up my thoughts on this whole thread. I’d also like to add that the exception is not the rule.

Just because YOU decided to transfer genders

And just because YOU willingly did so knowing the risks

And YOU happen to participate in a very sexually divisive sport

And YOU want to be the special case

And YOU somehow think it’s fair that using a man’s natural born strength combined with an increased muscle growth/strength capability

Doesnt mean it should be a problem for the other 99.9%

Sometimes life isnt fair to YOU. It’s literally impossible to make everything fair for all 7 billion people on this earth with their own opinions. You weren’t born with this ultimatum. You cant call the minority card when you willingly put yourself through the change. You weren’t born post op. You have (and let’s be real, whether or not it’s a bad thing is subjective taste) a mental health issue, and that’s just another battle that you have to work out yourself. Provided you take the trans route, you (SHOULD) have to be willing to accept the consequences of not competing in a field where there literally entire seperate competitions based on your biological makeup.

I’m totally trans rights. If you think you look better with a clam between your legs, fantastic, it doesnt (shouldnt) effect a single second of a single aspect of my life, but there is (in my opinion) an extremely clear line in the sand here.


#62

Great point worth emphasizing, @chaoshander


#63

From a woman’s perspective, the idea behind competing against MTF competitors fills me with dread. I don’t want to be exclusionary by any means, everyone can live their life how they see fit, but holy cow, you can’t deny biology.

I have a 1st Dan black belt in ITF Taekwon-Do. I’ve been fortunate enough to train with world class athletes who’ve attended, and won, in international competitions.

I’ve also been hit and kicked by both men and women, fortunately never by a man in an actual competition, only in training sessions. Because, to look at a different aspect of men/women/varieties thereof competing against one another, competition versus training are two totally separate things. The hit you take in the ring in those two minute bouts is gonna be a whack load harder than in a training session. Your energy is up, you’re hyped and feeling aggressive. And you’ve only got a little window of time to land as many punches and kicks as possible, in order to win and move up the bracket.

I’ve won in local and international competitions. I’ve also had my ass handed to me. All those instances were by other women. Just the thought of a man, even one at a lighter weight than me, side kicking me or jump punching me in the skull makes my stomach roll. Because dude, I’m gonna get hurt. Because he is genetically bigger, stronger, and his muscles and body works differently than mine.

I can’t quote you facts and studies and all that, all I can contribute to this conversation is that, above and beyond the considerations of scholarships, cash winnings, world records, etc, the safety factor is one that can’t be ignored. I’m not willing to be hospitalized to avoid hurting someone’s feelings, point finale. And it’s completely unfair for me to have to choose between whether or not I want to risk my health to compete, or not compete at all. That’s just bullsh*t.


#64

I wonder if this applies to mtf trans?


#65

This is a little statistically misleading. How many trans female athletes are there vs. female ones. The talent pool for women is 333 times larger if trans people make up .3% of the population. This is probably even a bigger difference when you take into account that many of the general pop transgender people don’t qualify with hormones and all to compete. It might be 1000 to 1 all things considered. Records not being broken yet isn’t the end all of the discussion. The best way to tell would be representation. The numbers I’ve seen show them over-represented in some athletic bodies by as much as 100 to 200 times what they should be if there was no advantage.


#66

Maybe…or look at the concerns about female-to-male trannies competing against males. I think that being a non-issue should pretty much end the debate about advantages.


#67

I really would love to see this happen.

I mean I doubt any FtM athlete is dumb enough to think they can’t hang in the men’s side, but if one exists it would be hella fun to watch.


#68

LOL. Do you also consider the wreckage resulting from high-speed crashes “hella fun to watch?” I assume so. No judgment.


#69

Only in hindsight if the driver ends up being alright actually. Me and my dad were watching when Earnhardt went down.

Always been more of an Indy guy myself though. Nascar is hella boring unless you’re at the track losing your hearing.

I was thinking more like FtM trying to dunk on LeBron.


#70

So was I.


#71

Aaron Donald or JPP cutting a FTM running back in half was my mental image. Like literally in half.


#72

I’m going to bring up a couple of issues that I’ve been pondering, and I state in advance that I am seriously on the fence about these.

I am not going to argue about whether this is a mental issue or a matter of the person being born in the wrong body, ok? Let’s just assume it’s the latter.

If it is recognized that someone is born into the wrong gender, and a sex change rectifies what was initially wrong, this means a male to female transgender must be recognized as a female for all intents and purposes once the transition is over. In other words, the term “transgender” should be limited to meaning one is “prior to, or in the process of transitioning”, with the person at the end of this transition being referred to as either a “man” or “woman”.

To make the claim that you support their rights, you would have to support their right to equal participation in sports as members of the specific gender. This cannot be an exception unless they’re not truly recognized as women or men.

To allow this to happen, there should not even be an argument even if the woman has an advantage due to previously having been a man. If women born biologically female are put at a disadvantage, then it’s a cost that needs to be borne collectively if they are genuinely sincere about recognizing the rights of women who were not born biologically female.

So, even if there is a distinct advantage, should this be an issue?

Here’s the other thing I’m pondering.

TRT is used by males who are hypogonadal. Hypogonadism is accepted and recognized as a medical condition. Hormone therapy is used as a treatment. It is considered to be medication for this purpose. However, it is not allowed in most sports organizations.

Hormone therapy is considered a medical process used to rectify the problem of a transgender woman’s biologically male body. Before transitioning, they have a male body, which should automatically exclude them. However, can they be excluded from participation with the same rationale men on TRT are excluded after going hormone therapy?

One more thing:

Women who use steroids generally undergo irreversible virilization effects. Can the argument be made that this is the same as a non-biological female who has undergone puberty? What are the rules pertaining to women who have used steroids in the past in sports? Are these grounds for temporary/indefinite exclusion?

*I’m throwing out the last 2 points based on the premise that the currently accepted rationale for male to female transgenders being allowed in women’s sports in most sports organizations is because they have no biological advantage over normal females. I’m not saying I agree with this rationale.


#73

Bans are 2 to 4 years and whilst I can’t remember the IOC policy exactly (which most sports seem to adopt), trans athletes must demonstrate they have a particular hormone profile for something like that period of time.


#74

A male? What is a non-biological female in our species?

This is only a complicated issue because the discussion is about how much does a male have to mutilate himself before he is handicapped enough to compete against women in a variety of sports.

Non-bio females? Males.


#75

download

I think this comes down to understanding outliers in population data. For example, there are always going to be Brittany Griners, but on average there is a quantifiable difference in height between male/female. Genetics is inherently variable. The same, I think, holds true for brains. The interplay of hormones and how they affect perception and information processing (both on a conscious and unconscious level i.e. “emotional intelligence” etc) is pretty well documented.

But, of course, there are going to be outliers. There always are. There are always going to be people who process information differently from their peers or demographic groups…this is part of what makes people creative. In fact there is evidence that many of the greatest inventors, scientists, and innovators of history think and perceive things differently from everyone one around them

So, in this case, I don’t believe you could persuasively make the argument you mentioned above about a brain processing differently from their biological average being a “physical” disease if we are going to use what we know about averages, genetics, hormones, and variability in a sample pool.

It’s a very interesting argument.


#76

One thing I think that always gets lost in the firefight over this issue is the question of “human worth” and “human competition”.

Quite simply, the fact that we are different–biologically, culturally, genetically–has no effect on the worth of a human being. However most people who get very upset about this on either end (not in this thread) conflate the two. Unless we want to have an existential philosophical argument about the nature of worth and truth etc. (please no) then these are vastly different.

A difference in competition allowances, or rules, or leagues, or whatever, and the actual worth of a human being are not the same. You are NOT what you do. You are not even what you feel that you are (i.e. nobody would argue that a depressed and suicidal person has zero worth…just that they feel this way)


#77

It very much does. I had a discussion with a group about this in regards to training (not trans, just training). Very good study with very big implications.

On another, very important note:

There is significant evidence that one’s brain does not fully develop until the mid twenties, and specifically the rational reasoning side. This means that, at the very least, people who undergo transitions earlier in life (college aged) may very well not be fully developed. As a result, they may not be making a decision with all the cards.

This also likely means that you can (theoretically at least) influence the development of your brain throughout your teen and college years in ways you may not know. We still don’t know the full impact of nutrition, training, genetics etc. on brain development through the teen and early adult years. You might be able to permanently alter aspects of your brain, without illicit drug use.

As a result, age restriction for medical transition decisions is at minimum a need, and very likely still does not account for all developmental variables.


#78

That on top of the very clear differences in the actual structural and neuro chemical differences between the male and female brain.

But who are we kidding. Everybody knows that science is a mysogenistic patriarchal construct.

I’d say that unless there is actual chromosomal proof that the person is physically the wrong birth sex that they can do their own thing, but it’s at their own risk, and if they want to change sex while competing in a sport they are at the whim of what ever governing body regulates that sport.


#79

Facts are patriarchy!! Don’t give in to science! I can hear it now…

This is pretty much where I land on the spectrum, almost exactly.


#80

Regarding whether the “Y” chromosome has any advantage in sports, I will note that, as one of the 1/800 or so part of the male population that has XYY (aka “double male syndrome”), I’m a solid 7 inches taller than any other male in my family, as are most Double Y males to their families, which are usually 6-7 inches taller.

Every male secondary sexual characteristic is exaggerated, down to my hairy balls, and my unfortunate knee-jerk tendency to solving issues by putting my fist through it. (Hence, why they used to claim XYY males were born criminals, which is untrue, although we are over-represented in prisons – and the military, the police, CEOS, and, strangely, lawyers.)

But, yes, all that is an advantage in sports.