I like to call those appeals to accomplishment, especially when the accomplishments of the person being referred to are so well documented.
The four points that Kroc laid out were, after double-checking, verifiably correct. There’s no disagreeing with them.
If you disagree that those four points about transwomen not breaking records aren’t related to fairness in competition (and I think that’s what you’ve said) then that’s a separate issue which is up for debate.
Agree. All of her statements are facts. I just don’t buy that they are evidence to support the claim that trans women do not have an advantage in sports (or at least some sports).
Not really the focus here, but I’ll point out that there are very significant differences/advantages in endurance sports. The idea of Kroc being disadvantaged by muscle mass is obviously an outlier data point.
Australia qualified for the handball world cup for the first time in history thanks to the efforts of an individual that has played the sport for less than five years.
Apparently she’s a hero. She’s also a Victoria sportsperson of the year. And she likes to gloat on Twitter how she’s “wrecking” her opponents.
Well, she is a he. And a large one, relative to the females he’s playing against. So, of course.
You guys are insane if you think biological males have an advantage over biological females even after transgendering themselves. If that were the case, there wouldn’t be so many examples of biological females successfully participating in men’s sports following their transitions.
That’s directly tied to the unmanageably muddy issue of “How much advantage is allowed/acceptable for any individual athlete in a given sport?”
Basketball players over 6’9" should be in their own league. Limb length is factored into a powerlifter’s Wilks score. No resting heart rate below 55 for competitive archery. A max VO2 max for cyclists. Bone density limits for fighters. Again, I think looking at it on a sport-by-sport basis adds unnecessary variables.
Not true. She played handball for six years before transitioning, including several years at a World class-level that included Olympic qualifiers and competing for the World Cup in the men’s league. It’s the same principle why Kroc doesn’t currently compete in powerlifting.
Being a dick is unrelated to gender identity, as that would unfortunately demonstrate.
so you are prepared to make the argument that, if a male grows up playing basketball, grows to be 6’10, plays successfully at a high level (let’s say D1 college basketball), would not have an advantage over female players if he were to transition to female at, say, the age of 22? The genetic height advantage would somehow just disappear? And please don’t make the argument that a woman can also be that tall genetically. There are 7 women in the world right now 6’10 or taller. Please don’t go there.
Totally. Just look at the born-as-women competing successfully against men. I’m pretty sure that’s happening.
Maybe I’m wrong.
cool. then answer the question I posed directly. no advantage there? none?
the situation I described is ABSOLUTELY a thing that can happen. There’s nothing theoretical about it. A 6’10 man can transition to a woman, and we can all assume that if it hasn’t happened before, that it will, particularly as the process becomes more socially accepted and rates of transition increase.
Sample size is so small right now, and that’s going to prevent us from really knowing what is possible of a trans athlete. We’ll know soon enough though.
At a high level? If you can provide me with a single example of a female to male athlete in the NBA, MLB, NFL, or NHL, I’d like to hear it. If you’re right, and those athletes are not at a disadvantage, surely you can provide me at least one example out of the thousands of athletes competing in those leagues.
Would a “/sarcasm” have helped?
The transgender stuff is literally crazy. It’s obviously caused by mental illness. I’m stunned that anyone argues that males and females are not different, or that one can choose which he wishes to be.
yes. i don’t know you, and people say stupid things.
Ya know, here’s the philosophical part of me on this…
I feel like almost anyone will attest to the notion of a male mind and a female mind. There are many psychologists and speakers that talk about working with the male mind vs the female mind, the difference in approaches, the difference in how information is processed, etc etc.
So say we accept the fact that there is such a thing as a female mind. Is it entirely possible that a fully functional, working, healthy female mind could manifest in the body of a biological male?
And, if that were the case, wouldn’t we in turn be looking at a PHYSICAL illness, not a mental one? The brain/mind are healthy, everything is firing correctly, no damage to any cortexes, hormones are all in order; it’s just in the wrong body. In such a case, wouldn’t we treat the BODY to match the mind, in order to treat the physical illness?
Walk it back a step; say you had an amputation, and your mind still acted as though you had the limb that was since gone. Would we say “You poor, poor mentally diseased person. You no longer have that limb. We need to treat your brain so that it will one day learn that the limb is not there.”, or would we give them a prosthetic so that the body now matches the brain?
Just something I myself have not fully wrapped my head around. Irrespective of the effects it plays on sports performance, I genuinely wonder if we’re willing to now say that the male mind and female mind are identical, and it’s purely a function of the body that dictates outcome, or if there is more at play.
I think the person would get a prosthetic…not to make the body match the brain, but for function. I don’t think that’s a great analogy.
What if a person has two perfectly functional arms but believes and acts as though he only has one(the other arm is just allowed to hang limply, and is never used)? Would we amputate his arm to make his body match his mind, or would we try to treat his mind?
It’s not an analogy at all; merely a question.
I genuinely do not know. I’m not an expert on medical or psychological treatments.
But I am curious if you agree with my initial premise that the male and female mind are different things. If you disagree, I cannot imagine we’d be able to discuss much. However, if you agree, we may have a common ground for a dialogue.
I agree with that.
Do you feel it could be possible for a fully functional and healthy female brain to grow inside to skull of a biological male, or vice versa?
No. I think “fully functional and healthy” would be out the window at that point. Your question is something to think about anyway, though.
Definitely. Appreciate the discussion on it. Still something I’m pondering.