The problem is allot of these high schools and all the stories we’re hearing aren’t using the WADA recommendations. There are plenty of venues where the test suppression recommendations aren’t happening. That’s how you get the high school boys wrecking girls wrestling and sprinting.
That’s a little bit of a cherry picking of the data. It’s not world class athletes (who could beat comparable athletes) where the controversy lies; it’s the rank-and-file, in particular in high school and college. And the use of various hormone therapies is typically limited (or inconsistent) in kids for various medical and ethical reasons, so oftentimes, it’s (biologically speaking) a dude with long hair beating girls.
And some things won’t go away in a year of therapy. I’ve been a lifter for many decades. Pulled 635 three times this morning. Had room in the tank. And I did squats yesterday. I am also 6’6" (OK, 6’5 1/2") with giant hands. Even after a year of hormone therapy, I’d bet I’d beat the woman’s record in England. I’d certainly dominate every local event.
Heck, I was the same height in HS and a star (HS level) basketball player, good enough for a tier II school in the States (not good enough for any team anyone cares about). But I’d have been a star woman’s player – and the height and the giant hands won’t go away after any sort of hormone therapy.
It’s this rank-and-file stuff is where it will be (is) a problem.
She addressed the NCAA/college level. But taking cue from the Olympics, if the best transwomen in the world aren’t beating the best ciswomen in the world, I see that as leaning towards it not being a gigantic factor when it comes to average transwomen vs average ciswomen.
High school sports are definitely a more grey area since hormone levels are weird at that age anyway, so requiring hormone therapy is a much more involved argument, like you said.
I do agree, like I think BG was getting at, having more sports follow one general guideline would be a great start. As of now, it seems like rules for transathletes in high school can vary state to state or even school district to district, which only complicates things.
But you’d have lost muscle mass and strength which would affect your playing style, speed, and power, so the therapy is still a factor in leveling the playing field to a degree.
And, not to open the already-open can of worms, but height and hand size are unalterable genetic traits that come from winning the genetic lottery. Being born trans is not.
If nothing else, it’s certainly redundant.
From Kroc’s post I have some issues. First being allowed to compete is no proof that it is fair, secondly zero transitioned women winning is also not proof that they have no advantage (could it be that the talent pool is much smaller?).
You pointed out a strawman fallacy, but then proceeded to use an appeal to authority fallacy.
I think this issue is more complicated than most people think. I personally need evidence to determine if an advantage is present for powerlifting. Powerlifting uses weight classes, which may not give an advantage to trans women?
I would say that if we agree being tall is an advantage for basketball, then being a trans woman is an advantage due to the average male being taller, and the far reaches of the male height distribution suggesting men with the outlier genetics for height will be taller than women with the similiar genetics.
The article from Dani:
I don’t think it’s an appeal to say “I didn’t have time to fact check this, but I believe she’s credible”. Especially when she openly invites people to research it and fact check.
I’m guessing that was supposed to say disadvantage?
An understatement, to be sure. But going sport by sport only makes things more complicated, so universal guidelines and standards are a better idea.
For example, Janae talked about getting into endurance racing and triathlons in our interview (pretty sure those plans got sidetracked though). She explained how she’d be at a disadvantage because she was still carrying much more bodyweight than competitive athletes carry.
I must have been wound up the day of my response. I sounded a bit like a dick. Sorry.
An appeal to authority fallacy is basically arguing that because an expert thinks something, it is true (experts are often wrong too). In this case the expert is Kroc (who I respect, BTW). I think in this case her arguments did have issues.
I think I got my pronouns right in the reference to basketball. A trans woman would have advantages competing against cis woman in basketball, due to the fact that men have an advantage regarding height. A trans woman with elite genetics for height would therefore be taller than a cis women with elite genetics for height.
I disagree about universal guidelines. I think some sports (basketball is one example), having a male frame is an advantage. Others it may be a disadvantage (perhaps endurance sports), and some sports (archery, equine sports, etc.) it is probably very close to equal.
Agree about endurance sports. In general, there is very little difference performance wise when it comes to endurance. I would think hormone therapy would be enough to negate any advantage, or as you said it could be a disadvantage.
I know what the fallacy means, but stating that you expect an expert to know what they’re talking about is not automatically an appeal to authority, especially when the idea of them being fact-checked was brought up more than once.
Also, not all “appeals to authority” are fallacies when you’re actually dealing with statements by an expert within their area of expertise. When a transgender athlete and advocate makes claims about transgender athletes, it’s not illogical to give their opinion merit. If Pete Rose says no player ever hit six home runs in a game, it’s not an appeal to authority to say he’s probably correct. If Joe Rogan made the same claim, then you’ve got a valid case.
Gotcha. I misread the original sentence.
What we’re dealing with here is the difference between a logical and an empirical argument.
Saying “Here is Kroc’s opinion. Kroc most likely knows things on this matter, and this opinion is most likely a good one” IS an appeal to authority, which means the argument is illogical, but it doesn’t mean the argument is WRONG, because empirically appeals to authority are a sound approach. We tend to default to the experts on matters that are above our means of skill or comprehension, trusting that they’ll most likely maintain their expertise.
Yes, that’s an illogical thing to do, but that doesn’t make it a “wrong” thing to do, which is the issue when people try to play the fallacy gotcha in a discussion. To say nothing of the fact that “argument from fallacy” or “fallacy fallacy” is ALSO a fallacy.
I know there’s a phallus joke somewhere in there to bring this whole thing back on topic.
I guess I did not agree with Kroc’s statements, I understand her arguments, but disagree. That is why I pointed out that I thought you were using a fallacious argument. I would not have mentioned it, if I believed Kroc’s statements were correct.
Great article that appeared on “T-Nation” today by Dani Shugart on this very topic.
I like to call those appeals to accomplishment, especially when the accomplishments of the person being referred to are so well documented.
The four points that Kroc laid out were, after double-checking, verifiably correct. There’s no disagreeing with them.
If you disagree that those four points about transwomen not breaking records aren’t related to fairness in competition (and I think that’s what you’ve said) then that’s a separate issue which is up for debate.
Agree. All of her statements are facts. I just don’t buy that they are evidence to support the claim that trans women do not have an advantage in sports (or at least some sports).
Not really the focus here, but I’ll point out that there are very significant differences/advantages in endurance sports. The idea of Kroc being disadvantaged by muscle mass is obviously an outlier data point.
Australia qualified for the handball world cup for the first time in history thanks to the efforts of an individual that has played the sport for less than five years.
Apparently she’s a hero. She’s also a Victoria sportsperson of the year. And she likes to gloat on Twitter how she’s “wrecking” her opponents.