T Nation

Trans-Woman Breaks Woman's British DL Record with 260kg Pull


#1

#2

Got a splitting allergy headache, and just felt like stirring the pot.

It was actually on my mind, with regards to Matt Kroc (sp?). Kroc is apparently a true-believing trans-gender, but Kroc could also destroy every biologically female weightlifting record in the world – and it would be completely unfair if Kroc did so.

Apparently, pointing out the obvious out is now bad.


#3

I saw an interview with the guy, it was pretty fun.


#4

Not every lift, no, but Kroc has always acknowledged that she’d have an unfair advantage competing with female powerlifters because of her decades of training and previous strength achievements, not solely because she was born a guy.

The putz in the article is blatantly mocking and wildly oversimplifying the situation to “prove” a point (and, I’m guessing, drive some traffic to his music biz. What a coincidence) and that publication seems pretty happy to flaunt their own bias from sentence one. “A British rapper has put the entire transgender movement in checkmate, and we couldn’t be happier.”

There was nothing close to “checkmate.” If he wanted to address the issue earnestly, there are much more effective ways than to do something I would’ve expected from some 17-year old bro. “Derp, I was a woman when I did the lift. You can’t prove I wasn’t.”

And when has anyone ever said “Biological men don’t have any physical strength advantage over women” that he keeps hearing? Pretty sure he invented that Strawman to suit his needs.

Speaking of weird coincidences (seriously), T Nation is actually running an article this coming Monday by Dani Shugart about transwomen in sports. Might be worth keeping an eye out for.

The issue of “identifying as a woman” is unfortunately vague. The finite guidelines that the majority of sports organizations have setup, generally regarding hormone levels over a given time period, is something else entirely. Pretty sure Zuby wouldn’t be interested in going on estrogen therapy for 12+ months and then trying his deadlift again.


#5

FWIW, Kroc also posted this on her Instagram yesterday. I haven’t had a chance to fact-check it, but I believe she can be taken as an expert on the topic, so I’d be surprised if it was inaccurate:

"The truth about trans athletes. As I’m sure most of you are aware there is a ton of controversy right now about transgender athletes and especially in the sport of power lifting. What is very disheartening to me is the amount of misinformation and outright lies concerning trans athletes that is being disseminated and repeated constantly without any fact checking. So here are some fast facts for everyone.

  1. Transgender athletes have been allowed by the IOC to compete in the Olympics since the Athens games in 2004.

  2. Since that time in the last 15 years openly trans women athletes have broken zero Olympic records, won zero gold medals, in fact not a single trans athlete has even been able to medal at all.

  3. Transgender athletes have been able to compete in the NCAA since 2011.

  4. In the last 8 years openly transgender athletes in the NCAA have broken zero national records, won zero national championships, and not a single one that we know of has been able to become a college All American. Both of these organizations currently require a trans woman to be on HRT for one year before they are eligible to compete.

Despite all of the arguments to the contrary I think it is quite obvious, looking at these statistics, that transgender women do not have the advantage that just about everyone seemingly thinks they have.

There is not room to go into it here but I’m currently making a video that will explain all of this in much greater depth and adress all of the popular arguments against trans people competing against cis women.

I’m also going to explain why I have chosen not to compete. I’ll let you guys know as soon as I post it on my YouTube channel. And for anyone out there that doubts these statistics please feel free to do your own independent research and check me on this. "


#6

The problem is allot of these high schools and all the stories we’re hearing aren’t using the WADA recommendations. There are plenty of venues where the test suppression recommendations aren’t happening. That’s how you get the high school boys wrecking girls wrestling and sprinting.


#7

That’s a little bit of a cherry picking of the data. It’s not world class athletes (who could beat comparable athletes) where the controversy lies; it’s the rank-and-file, in particular in high school and college. And the use of various hormone therapies is typically limited (or inconsistent) in kids for various medical and ethical reasons, so oftentimes, it’s (biologically speaking) a dude with long hair beating girls.

And some things won’t go away in a year of therapy. I’ve been a lifter for many decades. Pulled 635 three times this morning. Had room in the tank. And I did squats yesterday. I am also 6’6" (OK, 6’5 1/2") with giant hands. Even after a year of hormone therapy, I’d bet I’d beat the woman’s record in England. I’d certainly dominate every local event.

Heck, I was the same height in HS and a star (HS level) basketball player, good enough for a tier II school in the States (not good enough for any team anyone cares about). But I’d have been a star woman’s player – and the height and the giant hands won’t go away after any sort of hormone therapy.

It’s this rank-and-file stuff is where it will be (is) a problem.


#8

She addressed the NCAA/college level. But taking cue from the Olympics, if the best transwomen in the world aren’t beating the best ciswomen in the world, I see that as leaning towards it not being a gigantic factor when it comes to average transwomen vs average ciswomen.

High school sports are definitely a more grey area since hormone levels are weird at that age anyway, so requiring hormone therapy is a much more involved argument, like you said.

I do agree, like I think BG was getting at, having more sports follow one general guideline would be a great start. As of now, it seems like rules for transathletes in high school can vary state to state or even school district to district, which only complicates things.

But you’d have lost muscle mass and strength which would affect your playing style, speed, and power, so the therapy is still a factor in leveling the playing field to a degree.

And, not to open the already-open can of worms, but height and hand size are unalterable genetic traits that come from winning the genetic lottery. Being born trans is not.


#9

If nothing else, it’s certainly redundant.


#10

From Kroc’s post I have some issues. First being allowed to compete is no proof that it is fair, secondly zero transitioned women winning is also not proof that they have no advantage (could it be that the talent pool is much smaller?).

You pointed out a strawman fallacy, but then proceeded to use an appeal to authority fallacy.

I think this issue is more complicated than most people think. I personally need evidence to determine if an advantage is present for powerlifting. Powerlifting uses weight classes, which may not give an advantage to trans women?

I would say that if we agree being tall is an advantage for basketball, then being a trans woman is an advantage due to the average male being taller, and the far reaches of the male height distribution suggesting men with the outlier genetics for height will be taller than women with the similiar genetics.


#11

The article from Dani:


#12

I don’t think it’s an appeal to say “I didn’t have time to fact check this, but I believe she’s credible”. Especially when she openly invites people to research it and fact check.

I’m guessing that was supposed to say disadvantage?

An understatement, to be sure. But going sport by sport only makes things more complicated, so universal guidelines and standards are a better idea.

For example, Janae talked about getting into endurance racing and triathlons in our interview (pretty sure those plans got sidetracked though). She explained how she’d be at a disadvantage because she was still carrying much more bodyweight than competitive athletes carry.


#13

I must have been wound up the day of my response. I sounded a bit like a dick. Sorry.

An appeal to authority fallacy is basically arguing that because an expert thinks something, it is true (experts are often wrong too). In this case the expert is Kroc (who I respect, BTW). I think in this case her arguments did have issues.

I think I got my pronouns right in the reference to basketball. A trans woman would have advantages competing against cis woman in basketball, due to the fact that men have an advantage regarding height. A trans woman with elite genetics for height would therefore be taller than a cis women with elite genetics for height.

I disagree about universal guidelines. I think some sports (basketball is one example), having a male frame is an advantage. Others it may be a disadvantage (perhaps endurance sports), and some sports (archery, equine sports, etc.) it is probably very close to equal.

Agree about endurance sports. In general, there is very little difference performance wise when it comes to endurance. I would think hormone therapy would be enough to negate any advantage, or as you said it could be a disadvantage.


#14

I know what the fallacy means, but stating that you expect an expert to know what they’re talking about is not automatically an appeal to authority, especially when the idea of them being fact-checked was brought up more than once.

Also, not all “appeals to authority” are fallacies when you’re actually dealing with statements by an expert within their area of expertise. When a transgender athlete and advocate makes claims about transgender athletes, it’s not illogical to give their opinion merit. If Pete Rose says no player ever hit six home runs in a game, it’s not an appeal to authority to say he’s probably correct. If Joe Rogan made the same claim, then you’ve got a valid case.

Gotcha. I misread the original sentence.


#15

What we’re dealing with here is the difference between a logical and an empirical argument.

Saying “Here is Kroc’s opinion. Kroc most likely knows things on this matter, and this opinion is most likely a good one” IS an appeal to authority, which means the argument is illogical, but it doesn’t mean the argument is WRONG, because empirically appeals to authority are a sound approach. We tend to default to the experts on matters that are above our means of skill or comprehension, trusting that they’ll most likely maintain their expertise.

Yes, that’s an illogical thing to do, but that doesn’t make it a “wrong” thing to do, which is the issue when people try to play the fallacy gotcha in a discussion. To say nothing of the fact that “argument from fallacy” or “fallacy fallacy” is ALSO a fallacy.


#16

I know there’s a phallus joke somewhere in there to bring this whole thing back on topic.


#17

I guess I did not agree with Kroc’s statements, I understand her arguments, but disagree. That is why I pointed out that I thought you were using a fallacious argument. I would not have mentioned it, if I believed Kroc’s statements were correct.


#18

Great article that appeared on “T-Nation” today by Dani Shugart on this very topic.


#19

That one?


#20

Echo…