Training on Empty for Cutting

Carlon Colker touches briefly in his book on doing cardio last thing at night, as there will be nothing coming in foodwise afterwards. I’ve never tried it myself, but I recall is case being quite convincing.

S

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Carlon Colker touches briefly in his book on doing cardio last thing at night, as there will be nothing coming in foodwise afterwards. I’ve never tried it myself, but I recall is case being quite convincing.

S
[/quote]

You know, that seems like it makes a lot of sense. I’m going to have to try that.

[quote]Boss6 wrote:
dza1978 wrote:
your talking cardio for fat loss right? coz if not i agree with elusive , who trains on an empty stomach.

My head hurts more

Well, I was talking about any form of training - cardio, strength or anything in between. Advocates include people like Ori Hofmekler (WAARIOR DIET) although in later editions of his book, he advocates more food during the “undereating phase” and discusses pre-workout meals at length.

I think that primarily, most people think of “training on empty” when discussing cardio. Here for example is an excerpt from Tom Venuto’s excellent BURN THE FAT FEED THE MUSCLE:

Early morning fasted cardio: A simple method to increase the fat burning effects of your cardio by up to 300%
Any time of day that suits your schedule is a good time for cardio. The important thing is that you just do it. However, many bodybuilders and fitness models believe that
early morning fasted cardio burns more body fat. Although this is still controversial, the evidence is strong and there are many reasons to consider doing cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. The argument in favor of fasted early morning cardio goes something like this:

  1. After an overnight 8-12 hour fast, your body’s stores of glycogen are depleted and you burn more fat when glycogen is low.
  2. Eating causes a release of insulin. Insulin interferes with the mobilization of body fat. Less insulin is present in the morning; so more body fat is burned when cardio is done in the morning.
  3. There is less carbohydrate (glucose) in the bloodstream when you wake up after an overnight fast. With less glucose available, you burn more fat.
  4. If you eat immediately before a workout, you have to burn off what you just ate first before tapping into stored body fat (and insulin is elevated after a meal.)

He goes on to list other reasons.

Personally, I don’t see much difference as some of you seem to, between “cardio training” and “strength training” on empty.

I would argue that a hill sprint would tak the body as much as a set of Barbell Curls so if cardio on empty is OK, then strength training on empty should also be OK.

I think it is important to focus on the fact that we’re talking about CUTTING FAT. Training on empty is not something you would try if you were trying to gain muscle. Obviously, you’d be trying to eat plenty of macronutrients to do that.

I believe the answer lies in an understanding of the body’s major energy systems. Unfortunately, I don’t understand that very well but I will try to fix that ignorance in the coming weeks.

Many thanks

John [/quote]

and as you can see champ i did not disagree with the fasted cardio option , seeing as i do it myself, if you had of read elusives post above mine you would have seen i was commenting regarding lifting on an empty stomach which i personally felt wasnt a good option, you know with catabolism and all, but next time maybe you could be a tad more specific . enjoy

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
debraD wrote:
I’ve been eating peanut butter too but if it’s too close to working out it doesn’t sit very well. I haven’t quite figured out the best way for me yet.

debra,

Do you get acid reflux or an upset stomach?[/quote]

Just an upset stomach. Nausea pretty much.

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Carlon Colker touches briefly in his book on doing cardio last thing at night, as there will be nothing coming in foodwise afterwards. I’ve never tried it myself, but I recall is case being quite convincing.

S
[/quote]

I really enjoy doing runs at night in the summer but it really kills my ability to sleep and I need at least 2 hours after eating, preferably more or I get a really upset stomach. If you’re not running and doing something that involves less bouncing it might be alright though. I still tend to do a long run late on a Saturday night when it is summer.

I know a lot of guys that play hockey at night and they have the same issues with the sleep.

Well champ, as I said, I don’t think lifting on empty or doing cardio on empty makes a bit of difference. Eating muscle, if it occurs, can happen when running long distance, doing hill sprints, doing bodyweight exercises or lifting. If you doubt that, check out any of the anorexics jogging around your local park.

The whole point revolves around training while in a fasted state. Once muscle and liver glycogen is gone, the body taps into other energy. Proponents of training on empty believe that energy comes from fat while opponents say it comes from protein first.

I don’t know. My question is do you . . . as in, are you aware of any studies or research?

Thank you

[quote]elusive wrote:
I’ve never heard of anyone weightlifting without eating. That just sounds retarded. You weightlift to build muscle, why do it to put yourself in a negative energy balance.
my head hurts now.[/quote]

No, you don’t just weightlift to build muscle.

I don’t think you understood my question. Let me repeat:

Does anyone have conclusive proof that training on empty causes you to cut fat faster than training with a full tank?

Emphasis on CUT FAT FASTER

[quote]debraD wrote:
I really enjoy doing runs at night in the summer but it really kills my ability to sleep and I need at least 2 hours after eating, preferably more or I get a really upset stomach. If you’re not running and doing something that involves less bouncing it might be alright though. I still tend to do a long run late on a Saturday night when it is summer.

I know a lot of guys that play hockey at night and they have the same issues with the sleep.
[/quote]

For what it’s worth, I have the same issue if I have to train at night.

That is interesting. I always pass out after a run or lifting session. Always.

I practically need a 30-45 min nap every time I train.

I think it was tiribulus who stated that, and I agree with the logic.

You are priming your body to handle a certain type of fuel (in this case, fat). I also think the mechanism to store fat and breakdown fat are the same, just as metabolism being high is beneficial for body recomposition (not just burning fat or building muscle, but both functions). So, to initiate this mechanism for fat ‘handling’ is beneficial to the goal of fat loss.[/quote]

I tend to agree with this statement the most. I havebeen taught that your body will use your bodys stored glygogen, fat, then protein (from muscle) in that order for energy or fuel.

Unless you have a VERY low BF, you likely have a decent amount of stored fat to use as fuel.

To answer the OP, if you are training in the morning I think you will burn more fat ifyou are fasted and your mucles will not suffer. Your body should use glycogen stores followed by fat sores to give you energy. Just be sure to get your prtoein after your workout.

I plan to use a similar plan when I start cutting in 3 - 4 weeks.

[quote]JGerman wrote:
I think it was tiribulus who stated that, and I agree with the logic.

You are priming your body to handle a certain type of fuel (in this case, fat). I also think the mechanism to store fat and breakdown fat are the same, just as metabolism being high is beneficial for body recomposition (not just burning fat or building muscle, but both functions). So, to initiate this mechanism for fat ‘handling’ is beneficial to the goal of fat loss.

I tend to agree with this statement the most. I havebeen taught that your body will use your bodys stored glygogen, fat, then protein (from muscle) in that order for energy or fuel.

Unless you have a VERY low BF, you likely have a decent amount of stored fat to use as fuel.

To answer the OP, if you are training in the morning I think you will burn more fat ifyou are fasted and your mucles will not suffer. Your body should use glycogen stores followed by fat sores to give you energy. Just be sure to get your prtoein after your workout.

I plan to use a similar plan when I start cutting in 3 - 4 weeks.

[/quote]
x 2 , having extra adipose tissue is that extra fuel to make it through lean times your boby has stored.
Now i agree with the above poster ,and would think that having a diet high in protein and fats would help spare lbm, and since your reserves are there to be used for fuel, naturally ( fingers crossed for you ) the body will use it and therefore chip away at said fat especially in a fasted state.
This is whats working for me and i do fasted cardio and hill intervals .
all the best in finding conclusive evidence , why dont you just do it CHAMP!!!

I have never seen a study that proves that fasted cardio will teach your body to use more fat in the long run. I don’t think their will be since what has been proven is the body uses nutrients as they are (available && needed).

If you are not about to compete in a show be careful what you follow. Many bodybuilders do use fasted cardio to burn extra fat, but overall this is for short term fat loss.

Remember they may have to look extra vascular later that day or week for a show, others already have all the muscle they need and appearing ripped is TOP priority even if they have to sacrifice some. When your cutting from 300lbs and eating a 1000 calories a day fat is going to fly off fasted or not.

Overall it would be better to take in nutrients and let your training dictate how your body looks. If you have a long term weight loss goal ~10lbs of fat keep all muscle, concentrate on overall nutrient intake and training. If it’s quick, then fasted training will make you look more ripped that day or next, but it sucks cause the minute you eat a filling meal it goes away.

There are studies that prove fat is the primary tissue lost when losing wieght whether you lift or not.

I’m not about to search for the article, maybe someone else can find it or you can in google. I think on an extremly low calorie diet it was something like 70% fat loss around 20% muscle and 10% water. Don’t quote the numbers. The same study also described what type of tissue was gained in a high calorie diet.

[quote]Boss6 wrote:
elusive wrote:
I’ve never heard of anyone weightlifting without eating. That just sounds retarded. You weightlift to build muscle, why do it to put yourself in a negative energy balance.
my head hurts now.

No, you don’t just weightlift to build muscle.

I don’t think you understood my question. Let me repeat:

Does anyone have conclusive proof that training on empty causes you to cut fat faster than training with a full tank?

Emphasis on CUT FAT FASTER

[/quote]

You also weightlift to preserve muscle while dieting to lose fat. To answer your question, NO. No one has conclusive proof that training on empty will cut fat faster than training with some cals in ur tank.

Cardio is another story depending on the intensity, but weightlifting on empty sounds like a nice fail proof way to burn some muscle. If you want to burn fat quick and effiecently, why not observe how bodybuilders do it? None, that I’ve heard of, weightlift on empty.

[quote]Boss6 wrote
Does anyone have conclusive proof that training on empty causes you to cut fat faster than training with a full tank?
[/quote]

Maybe you missed my prior response, but there is little “conclusive proof” for any diet or training protocol.

For the most part, all diets and training protocols are based on theories.

I would just go with a simple protein shake (low or no carbs) before lifting if you want to do it on a “minimally full tank.”

I always find that if I do not eat something with high protein content before lifting that I do not perform as well in the gym.

I think the trade-off of not having to sacrifice your workout due to early fatigue for the ingestion of a low carb protein shake is more than worth any physiological concept regarding losing weight you can throw out there.

Additionally large doses of whey protein are known to cause release of important metabolic hormones (glucagon, GLP-1, insulin being high up on the list), some of which cause weight loss on their own through a variety of mechanisms, so this issue is very debatable.