Seeing as all of Josh Bryant’s lifter do this and several of them are benching 600+ I would think it’s safe to assume that it works. If it didn’t then no program written by Sheiko (or pretty much any other Russian coach) would produce results because nearly all the work is done with submaximal weights. It’s only gaelic that doesn’t believe in applying maximum force into every rep, people like Vasily Alexeyev were doing that long ago.
I think the question is whether there is ever a good reason not to apply maximum force into the bar on any compound lift. On isolation exercises there is a risk of injury if you train like that, but it makes no sense to go slow on a compound lift.
Greg Nuckols recently wrote and article titled “Internal Cues Don’t Affect Muscle Activation with Explosive Lifting”, I suggest you guys read it.
Key Points
With low (50% 1RM) loads on the bench press, trained participants were able to slightly increase pec and triceps activation by focusing on the target muscle, but only when performing slow reps.
When trying to lift explosively, actively focusing on using the pecs or triceps didn’t affect muscle activation.
Trying to press the weight explosively resulted in more muscle activation than pressing the weight slowly, regardless of cues.
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Exactly my thoughts. So much speculation, scientific study, anecdotal evidence, opinion, etc and I know it’s fun to think and talk about, but if that is all that it is, it is really pointless. To top it off, we have a low-mid 300# bencher telling everyone what is and isn’t absolutely useless for a raw lifters. There’s some good stuff in this thread, but it’s kind of reminiscent of… Kobe Bryant is better, no Jordan is, no LeBron is King. Here is one place a little time under the bar experimenting with a certain protocol would go a long way in putting things in perspective and answer alot of inquiries a person has. It doesn’t require a huge chunk of a lifters career and personally, I enjoy experimenting with different methods. The insight it provides is invaluable and it helps in navigating into finding your own way and what works for a particular individual. I’ll also say, that the law of specificity is totally overrated imo. At least for me and I think that varies to degrees of specificity. When, looking at the grand scheme of things, there are alot of things going on at different periods of time. I think allot of readers come away from a piece of literature and immediately start thinking in absolutes, without questioning what methods got them there and what methods it will take to keep them progressing in the future. Again, without the acting upon speculation, it’s just a forum full of talking heads.
Have you read any of Cal Dietz’s literature? It would be a good place to start with RFD.
I think I mostly agree with you guys about always moving barbells fast.
Not to argue, but maybe to move on, What about “Secondary Lifts?” Compound, barbell lifts, but with specific grip or stance to hit specific stuff. Sometimes these don’t move quickly.
Lately I have been doing some Spoto Press with a close grip. I don’t really try to move slow, but the pause at the bottom just makes the lift move that way. I swear I get lots of Tricep tension.
And some stiff leg deadlifts with a wide stance. This lift is just so hard I’d collapse if I went too fast. Again, I “feel” like the controlled execution helps my get more hips and hams and less low back.
What are you guys doing between compounds and single joint isolation lifts?
Specificity is probably super over rated.
More ways to get better has to be better. Every other sport gives you a variety of ways to learn skills. It’s also way more fun to mix things up.
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No, I haven’t. Perhaps I should look into that.
I wouldn’t say it’s overrated, it’s a question of how specific does it actually have to be. Powerlifting meets involve lifting maximal weights for single repetitions, so 100% specificity would be something like the Bulgarian method (not necessarily every day) where you do nothing but work up to a 1rm in the competition lifts, nothing else. I’m not going to get into the specifics, but there are a number of reasons why that won’t work very well for the majority of people. On the other hand, doing handstands, riding a bike, and doing random gymnastics moves isn’t going to take you from a 1000lb total to 1500lbs, your training does need to be specific to the goals that you are trying to achieve. As for only doing the competition lifts, once your technique is solid and you are not making linear progress then why the hell would you not do some other variations as well? It’s like the saying that doing the same thing 1000 times and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.
Just because you can’t move it fast doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try. If balance is an issue then go as fast as you can without falling, but that probably also means that you aren’t getting as much out of the exercise. Kind of like squatting on a bosu ball.
I’m not disagreeing with applying maximum force to each rep, I’ve always done it myself and had everyone I coach do it when training for strength. Assistance movements that I want to get stronger at will also be move with maximum force but movements that are used for hypertrophy I move slower but not slow.
I wouldn’t take much from the internal cues article suggested by @chris_ottawa. The sample size is too small to be able to generalise to the whole population and they aren’t homogeneous enough in terms of training experience and level to generalise to a specific group. EMG also has a number of problems as the electrodes must be placed at the exact same place on each individual which is almost impossible with different structures and muscle lengths and body fat also insulates the signals. EMG also cannot predict adaptation.
Even with all the drawbacks of the study I’d still advise people to lift as explosively as possible for strength training. Hypertrophy training is a different matter.
Warm up sets. I move those pretty slowly then I try move it as fast as possible once I hit about 50%. I find speed will keep increasing to about 75% at that rate.
I find moving very light weights is fatiguing for little gain.
I agree with all of this. I dont think i worded my question correctly so ill have another go.
If peak power output is optimized at 40-60 percent, how much time should a lifter spend using this loading to increase bar speed and how much improvement in this range would carry over to maximal lifting?
If you could improve peak power output by 50% at loads of 40-60% 1RM, how much of this increase would be evident at 100% 1RM?
OR
How much difference would there be in 1RM improvements if 2 identical athletes performed the same frequency, volume and intensity of training but one tried to apply maximum force to each rep while the other only applied the force necessary to complete the lift?
Im not trying to suggest that CAT or speed work doesnt work, because IT DOES. Im interested in thoughts on how much of an effect it has.
I understand that you are enchanted by Bryant’s book, but you don’t know the fundamental principles of developing maximum strength. You mistakenly think that you need an explosive strength to accelerate the bar as the raw lifter; it’s a deep mistake. Mentor Zatsiorsky, on the basis of long-term research, clearly says that you improve the maximum strength (raw strength) in slow movements or speeds. Also Zatsiorsky says, and it is logical that fast movements don’t have almost any noticeable effect for maximum strength. You need to realize that in fast (explosive) movements you will not get an adequate strength gradient (whose formula is F0.5/T0.5; F = strength, T = time), which also has a great effect on the success of the set. Last but not least, you don’t need explosive power as the raw lifter, as you can’t use it for proper competitions (yesterday I mentioned other reasons). It’s also a health aspect (e.g. the speed deadlift can injure your lower back much more than other variants the deadlift).
My apologies, I should have specified work sets.
There is no way to know without doing an experiment, but the concept of applying maximum force into every rep is nothing new, Fred Hatfield was already talking about this decades ago and the study that you don’t think much of only further confirms what he was teaching. Mike Israetel says the same thing in “Scientific Principles of Strength Training”. If all the great coaches and sport scientists are saying the same thing then what argument can you build against it?
So please explain the fundamental principles.
That doesn’t mean that you should lift the weight slowly, what that means is that heavy lifts that move slowly provide the greatest training stimulus. However, they also cause a lot of fatigue and that will limit how much volume can be done so it makes sense to use some submaximal work as well. As for fast movements, Zatiorsky is referring to the dynamic method (the actual dynamic method and not how the do it at Westside) and I also think that those weights are too light for anything more than technique practice although Sheiko seems to have different ideas.
The weights you have been using in your training are on the lighter end of the spectrum for CAT guidelines, do you think that by moving the bar slowly it will somehow provide more training stimulus?
How so?
My guess with that is that folks tend to think of speed as explosion off the floor, and to develop that explosiveness they end up dropping low enough that they end up with slack in the bar and end up blowing an O-ring when they hit the weight as opposed to taking the slack out (which more knowledgeable folks do) and then exploding.
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You’ve seen me deadlift?
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